power draw

straightline said:
We both know there is no such thing as a level draw stroke....
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It is interesting that you chose that particular nit to pick. I have pointed out repeatedly and in many fora that it is rare to be able to shoot with a truly level stick. The last time I pointed that out -- about a week ago -- I also pointed out how it was possible to play with negative elevation and get swerve to the left with right side spin. Byrne has a relatively practical negative elevation shot in his 350 shots book, I believe.

I deliberately chose the wording I did to make the point more strongly. The qualification, "as level as possible" reduces the force of the statement.

Swerve and jumping are the major reasons for not elevating more than you are forced to. There are some others. I suspect Dr. Dave covers them on his web page.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It is interesting that you chose that particular nit to pick. I have pointed out repeatedly and in many fora that it is rare to be able to shoot with a truly level stick. The last time I pointed that out -- about a week ago -- I also pointed out how it was possible to play with negative elevation and get swerve to the left with right side spin. Byrne has a relatively practical negative elevation shot in his 350 shots book, I believe.

I deliberately chose the wording I did to make the point more strongly. The qualification, "as level as possible" reduces the force of the statement.

Swerve and jumping are the major reasons for not elevating more than you are forced to. There are some others. I suspect Dr. Dave covers them on his web page.
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That's one that hadn't occurred to me; negative masse. Hmm. Regardless, Everything I posted is basic and actual ball dynamics. Shooting down tips the rotation /velocity ratio in favor of rotation. Actual power draw - no silicone, no fresh, cushy cloth, requires a DOWNWARD stroke; from hell maybe, but downward nonetheless.
 
evergruven said:
miscued a few times stroking low and level
think I was trying to too hard, maybe got tight
for a change, I tried striking higher up on the cb
but with a downward stroke
it actually worked pretty well..surprised me
wondering what the instructors' take is on this technique?
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Mike Massey-power draw demo:
Note how level the cue is at impact. 'Nuff said.
 
straightline said:
No it isn't. He actually drags the tip into the cloth a la Sigel. It's barely even level after the shot....
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Ah, I believe I wrote "note how level the cue is at IMPACT." Emphasis added.

He isn't dragging his tip across the cloth BEFORE IMPACT, is he?

And where did i say the cue was perfectly level? Right, I didn't. I said "how level," indicating that the cue was fairly level given the shot. Which it was. Clearly. He doesn't have his cue all jacked up around his ear.

I see this all the time with inexperienced players or players that don't understand how to draw. These people always say something like, "I thought I needed to jack up to draw, because I need to aim down at the back of the CB to generate backspin." Which is completely wrong.

You want the cue to be fairly level; of course it's going to be slightly tipped down because you're trying to hit a spot on the cue below its equator, but it isn't necessary to have the back of the cue elevated; in fact, the butt of the cue shouldn't really be any higher than it would be for a center hit. The adjustment is at the tip and point of impact, which should be around halfway between the equator and the bottom of the cue ball.

Two things usually happen when you jack up the back of the cue: one, there's a tendency to hit off-center resulting in squirt, which drives the CB laterally away from its intended direction of travel. Two, miscues.
 
straightline said:
Shooting down tips the rotation /velocity ratio in favor of rotation.
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Yes, you can get a steeper draw angle that way on close cut shots. But it comes at a cost - driving the ball down into the table (and any subsequent bounces) creates higher ball/cloth friction, resulting in less draw spin, especially over longer distances.

pj
chgo
 
megatron69 said:
Ah, I believe I wrote "note how level the cue is at IMPACT." Emphasis added.

He isn't dragging his tip across the cloth BEFORE IMPACT, is he?
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Compare his bridge height and the cue ball strike. There's another video or it could be this one where he does the Sigel thing. There simply isn't anywhere else to follow through.
Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, you can get a steeper draw angle that way on close cut shots. But it comes at a cost - driving the ball down into the table (and any subsequent bounces) creates higher ball/cloth friction, resulting in less draw spin, especially over longer distances.

pj
chgo
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It can but fact of the matter is draw with any speed is not just a form of piquet, it has properties of a jumpshot. [Points in direction of jacked up on end rail uber draw]
 
Patrick Johnson said:
That doesn’t mean that amount of jump doesn’t matter. More jump = less draw over distance. Level-as-possible is best (except for special cases).

pj
chgo
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Cases like silicone? Level as possible will still bounce the ball. Freeze the cue ball to a cushion. Shoot the ball with rail side english as parallel as possible lol. The ball has to leave the cushion. There's a shot where a dime is placed in the middle of the table. The object is to hit the dime with the cue ball from 2 or so feet; center ball. At anything above med speed the cue ball will like sail right over it. Same thing with a draw shot. Consider the initial hop. This period allows the ball to wind up to full speed. I do believe rotation has to accelerate to peak speed right? Also with most draw shots the ball can skim the cloth for a significant distance and even hops would be so shallow as to not appreciably impede backspin. IOW bigger hops would land heavier, scrubbing more backspin but the ball can easily jump the entire distance anyway. Already cited these facts as I'm sure you recall. why do you insist on arguing against ball dynamics?
 
straightline said:
Cases like silicone? ... eady cited these facts as I'm sure you recall. why do you insist on arguing against ball dynamics?
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What exactly is your point in all of these posts? What is in them that might help people play better? Can you state that briefly and clearly?
 
Tennesseejoe said:
Just for practice try this: look at the cue ball when you hit it and use a very loose grip.
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I have a question for you about using a loose grip with power draw. Is there a point where you tighten up the tension on the cue so as not to lose it since it's moving fast? If so, at what point would that be?
 
straightline said:
Level as possible will still bounce the ball.
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As has been stated lots of times before - but that doesn't mean minimal bouncing (nearly level cue) has the same effect on draw as maximum bouncing (jacked up cue).

You might try listening instead of arguing - might learn something...

pj <- skeptical
chgo
 
straightline said:
Look how close he is to the ball and how live the rails are. Even I can do that - nearly. I don't consider that a power draw at all. The shot I'm talking about is from jacked up on the end rail.
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Hahaha, oh, okay. You can't power draw at all, but you're going to argue how to do it anyway. And really I'd like to see you draw anywhere near what Massey does in that video.

And then you tell us that Mike Massey, basically the King of power draw, doesn't know what he's doing or what he's talking about concerning power draws.

Riiiiight.
 
megatron69 said:
Hahaha, oh, okay. You can't power draw at all, but you're going to argue how to do it anyway. And really I'd like to see you draw anywhere near what Massey does in that video.

And then you tell us that Mike Massey, basically the King of power draw, doesn't know what he's doing or what he's talking about concerning power draws.

Riiiiight.
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Typical jock. Shot dynamics will never concede to random genetic properties like you have between players. Like I said, I don't have the physique to produce that stroke without umm distortion shall we say. At my size and on a garden variety slow table, the same shot and execution will get me back to the end rail and out a couple feet and that I don't consider the shot itself a power draw. So friggn wutt?

The shot in question and that's the operative question here because I brought it up back at the beginning, is with cue ball on the end rail. I don't care if it's out a few inches although it can be done frozen to the cushion.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
As has been stated lots of times before - but that doesn't mean minimal bouncing (nearly level cue) has the same effect on draw as maximum bouncing (jacked up cue).

You might try listening instead of arguing - might learn something...

pj <- skeptical
chgo
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Listening to you trying to win? WTF? Statements usually can't cover the universe of angles. For a scientist you sure play loose with discussion; more like a cop I'd say.
 
straightline said:
Typical jock. Shot dynamics will never concede to random genetic properties like you have between players. Like I said, I don't have the physique to produce that stroke without umm distortion shall we say. At my size and on a garden variety slow table, the same shot and execution will get me back to the end rail and out a couple feet and that I don't consider the shot itself a power draw. So friggn wutt?

The shot in question and that's the operative question here because I brought it up back at the beginning, is with cue ball on the end rail. I don't care if it's out a few inches although it can be done frozen to the cushion.
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I'm 52, 5'8" 165 lbs. with a bad shoulder, and I can draw the CB about 1.75x on a crappy Valley barbox. More than that on a Diamond. About 2x on a 9' GC.

Not sure what the "jock" comment is about or why it's relevant. Sounds like a typical attempted excuse to me.

Maybe instead of tyring to reinvent the wheel, you should spend more time learning from the professionals?
 
megatron69 said:
I'm 52, 5'8" 165 lbs. with a bad shoulder, and I can draw the CB about 1.75x on a crappy Valley barbox. More than that on a Diamond. About 2x on a 9' GC.

Not sure what the "jock" comment is about or why it's relevant. Sounds like a typical attempted excuse to me.

Maybe instead of tyring to reinvent the wheel, you should spend more time learning from the professionals?
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My first exposure to pool was the cream and the odd legend. First session I witnessed was a mind blower but I digress. I got on very solid footing during that time. Anyway if you weren't such a jock you'd know that you're just taking shots at me and some of the observations I've made over the years. "sounds like a typical attempted excuse..." "...Maybe instead of tyring to reinvent the wheel, you should spend more time learning from the professionals?"... Is along the lines of flailing at me. Kinda inane to boot. My facts are sound. No excuses.

'Grats on your drawing. From the end rail on a gold crown with worn cloth, I might not make it back to the cushion. Note: This is a free standing shot with no side cushion assist. From the Massey position I can get back and a half table out If I accidentally hit it perfect. Again BFD.

Anything else?
 
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