Practicing via Feel Only

[nataddrho]

There is a huge amount of information available regarding systems based off of diamonds, which are absolute positional markers on the table. Sang Lee, and a few other high level players have mentioned that systems are kind of a crutch. Have any of you tried to approach practicing the game more organically? For example the things that I am focusing on are

1. Practicing the quality of follow shots, making sure the cue is level at the maximum height or even tilted slightly upwards. This seems to help a lot with consistency, and it is a very subtle skill to develop.
2. Practicing hitting ball fractions exactly from anywhere on the table, and recognizing that you actually did in fact hit the correct fraction. I am currently down to 1/3, 1/4, 1/5. 1/6th are quite hard but achievable.
3. Ensuring that your tip hits the cue ball exactly where your brain intends it to, and the cue continues in a straight line, (slightly upwards if follow, level if center, down into the table if draw)
4. Watching a tremendous number of matches to make your shot selection match that of pros
5. Feeling kiss situations and making adjustments necessary
6. Really working hard on your pre-shot routine so that it becomes carved in stone. For example
   1. Look at table
   2. Choose correct shot based off of knowledge
   3. Run your mental simulator over and over again until your brain gives you the ball-fraction-tip-location combination for that shot
   4. Taking care to set up and align each shot, and then execute precisely

When I do all of these things, I play very well, and it gives me a lot of confidence that my mental simulator CAN solve these problems, which even surprises me sometimes of some of the shots I attempt and actually make with deliberation. The challenge is to keep the mental simulator from getting worn out and losing focus, which I suppose is the ultimate challenge of this game.

I definitely do need to practice a small number diamond systems to help with mental shortcuts and saving brain power, but I am not convinced that I should be spending a huge amount of energy on numerical systems compared to functional skill development.

What are your thoughts?

 

[mr3cushion]

There is a huge amount of information available regarding systems based off of diamonds, which are absolute positional markers on the table. Sang Lee, and a few other high level players have mentioned that systems are kind of a crutch. Have any of you tried to approach practicing the game more organically? For example the things that I am focusing on are

1. Practicing the quality of follow shots, making sure the cue is level at the maximum height or even tilted slightly upwards. This seems to help a lot with consistency, and it is a very subtle skill to develop.
2. Practicing hitting ball fractions exactly from anywhere on the table, and recognizing that you actually did in fact hit the correct fraction. I am currently down to 1/3, 1/4, 1/5. 1/6th are quite hard but achievable.
3. Ensuring that your tip hits the cue ball exactly where your brain intends it to, and the cue continues in a straight line, (slightly upwards if follow, level if center, down into the table if draw)
4. Watching a tremendous number of matches to make your shot selection match that of pros
5. Feeling kiss situations and making adjustments necessary
6. Really working hard on your pre-shot routine so that it becomes carved in stone. For example
   1. Look at table
   2. Choose correct shot based off of knowledge
   3. Run your mental simulator over and over again until your brain gives you the ball-fraction-tip-location combination for that shot
   4. Taking care to set up and align each shot, and then execute precisely

When I do all of these things, I play very well, and it gives me a lot of confidence that my mental simulator CAN solve these problems, which even surprises me sometimes of some of the shots I attempt and actually make with deliberation. The challenge is to keep the mental simulator from getting worn out and losing focus, which I suppose is the ultimate challenge of this game.

I definitely do need to practice a small number diamond systems to help with mental shortcuts and saving brain power, but I am not convinced that I should be spending a huge amount of energy on numerical systems compared to functional skill development.

What are your thoughts?

Playing a on a 9' table is Way Much easier than a 10' 3C table!

 

[Moe Szyslak]

A lot of things I think of as "systems" are more baselines. For example, in the picture, where the ball is on the first rail, if I hit the ball 1/4 ball with a little english, that's where it's going to go. And of course, I know the running lines/tracks that connect rails 2-3-4-5. Half ball hit and they all shift one diamond. If you want to do that all by feel, knock yourself out. I find it's a massive shortcut to just know these incredibly easy to memorize numbers. I just look at where the first ball is and I know, "It's going to 30, will hit the 1st diamond from the corner on the 3rd rail, the first diamond on the 4th long rail and then heads back towards the other corner. Takes me literally two seconds in my head.

Then I know where the second rail will hit/needs to be hit based on where the first rail is hit. Again, easy to memorize. If there's a position where it's easier to base it off of the second rail hit, you know that already. And then again you know the track that goes to rail 3-4-5. That covers probably 50+% of the shots you're going to make. It's like a simple system that connects all kinds of shots together.

Simple stuff like if you're doing a short table shot, you hit the first ball with lots of spin and go perpendicular into the long rail, the spread will be 18. So if the first ball is at 10, the third rail will be hit at 8. Works the same way going the long table, except it's double, 36. That kind of thing takes me ten seconds to memorize. Personally I wouldn't bother feeling it out.

Same thing, like if the object ball is touching the long rail and you hit it 1/2 ball with no english, do you know exactly what the cueball diamond spread is? I just memorize that and then I can adjust from there. I don't see why I would want to "feel" that when I can just shoot the shot once and memorize one number. If you memorize 1/4 and 1/8, too, now you can make the cueball go practically anywhere you want.

Now say a rail first umbrella type shot, yeah I'll just go system on that. If I had five years to practice them all day long, I would but I don't.

Not all "systems" are 50-40-(2/30) or whatever.

 

[Texas3cushion]

Sometimes trying too hard to force progression will stagnate one.

It’s hard to accept that it takes time.

Simply playing pool in general applies to all the things you listed.

You can’t fake or force experience.

If you could teach a toddler everything you know in life in the time it takes to snap your fingers. What would that look like?

That’s a rhetorical question.

 

[nataddrho]

Sometimes trying too hard to force progression will stagnate one.

It’s hard to accept that it takes time.

Simply playing pool in general applies to all the things you listed.

You can’t fake or force experience.

If you could teach a toddler everything you know in life in the time it takes to snap your fingers. What would that look like?

That’s a rhetorical question.

Understood, but I don’t really align with the subject of these statements. I’m not impatient and overly ambitious. Just asking questions.

 

[Moe Szyslak]

I just played for a half hour and paid attention to what I was using, if anything. The vast majority of shots either used the basic diamond system, or the side rail numbers system like I pasted in above, or using the 2nd short rail contact point to figure out how to get on the right track. A ticky came up, that's using the exact same side rail numbers system, you just have to add an adjustment depending on the angle you're coming in on. and of course knowing running lines/tracks. Plus system came up twice. I use these all the time so I barely even think about them. They're barely even 'systems' to me anymore at this point. With the side rail number system, I barely have to wait for the first object ball to stop rolling. I see it's coming in at 2 (or 20) so I just know where the cue ball is going to go if I hit it with 1/4 or 1/2 hit. Don't even have to think about it, just focus on hitting the cue ball right.

I know a bunch of systems because I just think they're cool. But most of them you don't use that often. When some odd shot where the two object balls are together and there's no easy natural shot comes up, it's always a good feeling to whip out some system and make it.

But I think you're best off having a small handful of the most useful systems, like the diamond and plus and running tracks, and just really working through them and the adjustments to them. Like I said, eventually they stop being systems and just become part of your game. You don't even have to think about the shot much anymore, you just know where the cue ball is going if you hit it right. It frees you up to worry about kisses and speed and all the other stuff.

Of course, you can always pick up super easy to remember systems like this one. Count the distance between the two object balls 20 to 60 = 40. Divide by 2 = 20. That's where you need to hit 'through' the diamond on the short rail, with running English, to make the shot. If the second object ball was at 40, the distance is 20/2 = 10, you have to hit 10 on the short rail. The rail numbers are the easiest thing to remember, each diamond is 10. That's it, take one minute to memorize that and you'll never forget it.

 

[nataddrho]

I just played for a half hour and paid attention to what I was using, if anything. The vast majority of shots either used the basic diamond system, or the side rail numbers system like I pasted in above, or using the 2nd short rail contact point to figure out how to get on the right track. A ticky came up, that's using the exact same side rail numbers system, you just have to add an adjustment depending on the angle you're coming in on. and of course knowing running lines/tracks. Plus system came up twice. I use these all the time so I barely even think about them. They're barely even 'systems' to me anymore at this point. With the side rail number system, I barely have to wait for the first object ball to stop rolling. I see it's coming in at 2 (or 20) so I just know where the cue ball is going to go if I hit it with 1/4 or 1/2 hit. Don't even have to think about it, just focus on hitting the cue ball right.

I know a bunch of systems because I just think they're cool. But most of them you don't use that often. When some odd shot where the two object balls are together and there's no easy natural shot comes up, it's always a good feeling to whip out some system and make it.

But I think you're best off having a small handful of the most useful systems, like the diamond and plus and running tracks, and just really working through them and the adjustments to them. Like I said, eventually they stop being systems and just become part of your game. You don't even have to think about the shot much anymore, you just know where the cue ball is going if you hit it right. It frees you up to worry about kisses and speed and all the other stuff.

Of course, you can always pick up super easy to remember systems like this one. Count the distance between the two object balls 20 to 60 = 40. Divide by 2 = 20. That's where you need to hit 'through' the diamond on the short rail, with running English, to make the shot. If the second object ball was at 40, the distance is 20/2 = 10, you have to hit 10 on the short rail. The rail numbers are the easiest thing to remember, each diamond is 10. That's it, take one minute to memorize that and you'll never forget it.

View attachment 845756

These are exactly the types of things I am looking for. If you PM me the other diagrams you are talking about then I will absorb them as you mentioned. Divide by the difference is brilliant and now I know forever.

 

[Moe Szyslak]

I'll just post them here, if nobody minds. This isn't a busy part of AZB anyway. I have to look up some of this for diagrams, most of it lives in my mind now.

I assume you know the Basic Diamond System? You need to know the tracks, like if you hit 30 on the third rail, where will you hit on the 4th and 5th rail? Like this, 20 goes to the corner, 30 goes to the first diamond right of the corner, 50 goes to the middle diamond on the short rail.

 

[nataddrho]

I'll just post them here, if nobody minds. This isn't a busy part of AZB anyway. I have to look up some of this for diagrams, most of it lives in my mind now.

I assume you know the Basic Diamond System? You need to know the tracks, like if you hit 30 on the third rail, where will you hit on the 4th and 5th rail? Like this, 20 goes to the corner, 30 goes to the first diamond right of the corner, 50 goes to the middle diamond on the short rail.


View attachment 845783

Yes I have these deeply memorized. I just never assigned numbers to them.

 

[KissedOut]

I'm curious what the effect on averages would be at the pro level and amateur level if they played on tables without any diamonds.

 

[mr3cushion]

I'm curious what the effect on averages would be at the pro level and amateur level if they played on tables without any diamonds.

I proposed this notion 40 years ago!

A Top player knows how to divide the table into 'Sections' without diamonds!

The weaker players depend much more on 'Systematic' info more than Pro's.

 

[Moe Szyslak]

Yes I have these deeply memorized. I just never assigned numbers to them.

How do you figure a basic natural 'diamond system' type 3 rail shot? Just feel? When I found that side rail number system, it was the greatest thing to me. I just instantly know where it's going and then it's easy to adjust from there.

 

[Moe Szyslak]

I'm curious what the effect on averages would be at the pro level and amateur level if they played on tables without any diamonds.

Averages would go way up because then people would have to play by feel. It might be a month or two once the crutch is removed, you need to rebuild a little strength once you're off crutches, right? but then averages would be higher than ever.

I don't get it - I thought diamond systems were a waste of time and a crutch and don't work anyway?

If diamond systems don't work, getting rid of the diamonds shouldn't really have much effect. You were basically estimating wrong before and you're estimating by feel now, which is better. Diamonds and numbers never made the player. If you're a real player, diamonds don't make a difference.

If they do work to the point that removing the diamonds would seriously impact averages, then I don't get why you wouldn't use them. It seems like they're very effective then.

It's like asking, "What if they took the sights off guns in competitive shooting?"
Pick one:
1. People shoot better, which proves sights were a stupid crutch all along
2. People shoot worse, which proves sights were a really effective aid
3. People shoot exactly the same as before, which proves sights don't make a difference

I proposed this notion 40 years ago!

I don't want to break it to you, but Welker Cochrane and Jake Schaefer proposed it 60 years before that.

Schaefer and Cochran Challenge Any One To 3-Cushion Test With Diamonds Removed

 

[Moe Szyslak]

"By utilizing the inlaid diamonds on the rails of the table the so-called system players have become mere mechanics and not billiard players in the true sense of the word," Schaefer said. "If the diamonds are removed from the table the key to their science is gone..." - Jake Schaefer, 1928

Three years short of 100 years ago today. Nothing ever changes.

 

[nataddrho]

Playing a on a 9' table is Way Much easier than a 10' 3C table!

Not Way Much easier. Just a little easier. It is highly recommended to learn on. You even said this yourself.

 

[mr3cushion]

Not Way Much easier. Just a little easier. It is highly recommended to learn on. You even said this yourself.

I said small tables used to play the 'Small' games on 8' and 9' tables is easier and good to practice on first.

Top 3c players going from 10'-9' tables, series of, 7, 8 and 9's are common place!

 

[nataddrho]

How do you figure a basic natural 'diamond system' type 3 rail shot? Just feel? When I found that side rail number system, it was the greatest thing to me. I just instantly know where it's going and then it's easy to adjust from there.

Yes, just feel. For three rail shots I feel how much object ball I need to take. When OB and cb are parallel to rail about 1 1/2 diamond from long rail, To get to the corner I hit about 1/3 object ball with 4:30 English 30 percent from center. To get one diamond from the corner on the short rail I hit between 1/3 and 1/4 ball with 2:45 English about 40 percent from center. 2 diamonds is a 1/4 ball with top spin about 12:45 to 1:00 40 pfc. to get to opposite corner it’s 1/5 ball straight top. When I am no longer parallel to long rail and have an angle I adjust this baseline with more or less ball. I make adjustments to avoid kisses, usually by adding draw so the cb goes above the OB.

I do use the diamonds to help with a target for short long long shots sometimes, but I hit short long shorts by feel with top and very sensitive outside English. The amount of ball I take is around 1/4 ball.

So I kind of have a system but it isn’t based off of diamonds. It’s based on dynamics. I don’t know if this is the right way to play, but I also play 1c and there is no way I can use systems with diamonds on most shots. Maybe from that game I just learned the rail behavior well?

I don’t know, I’m a student and my game is strong enough to try different things without causing problems. I have an open mind.

 

[KissedOut]

Not Way Much easier. Just a little easier. It is highly recommended to learn on. You even said this yourself.

When I went to watch the World Championship in Bordeaux a few years ago I met a Dutch guy who was telling me about the billiard club he belonged to. Members were only allowed to play on the metric version of a 9 foot table until they had achieved a certain average (I don't remember what the number was, but I'm pretty sure it was over .5). Only then were they permitted to move up to the regulation sized table.

 

[nataddrho]

When I went to watch the World Championship in Bordeaux a few years ago I met a Dutch guy who was telling me about the billiard club he belonged to. Members were only allowed to play on the metric version of a 9 foot table until they had achieved a certain average (I don't remember what the number was, but I'm pretty sure it was over .5). Only then were they permitted to move up to the regulation sized table.

Yes this is very common in clubs in Europe. And you start with the free game and progress to ball line and then 1c and finally 3C, then go to the big table.

Americans don’t like being bad at something for a long time before they get good at it, lack of patience. So they just jump right to the hardest version and then egoize themselves before they even know the basics.

 

[mr3cushion]

Yes this is very common in clubs in Europe. And you start with the free game and progress to ball line and then 1c and finally 3C, then go to the big table.

Americans don’t like being bad at something for a long time before they get good at it, lack of patience. So they just jump right to the hardest version and then egoize themselves before they even know the basics.

Obviously, You don't know too much about the History of the progression of the 'Small games to 3C' in the US from the 1900's-40's!

In 63 I started with 'Straight rail' then on to 18.2 Balkline for about 2-21/2 years with some 3C mixed in! Practicing 4-5 hrs. a day.

I was taught by Men who played during the 'Golden Era of 'Billiards' in the US!

High run in 'Free' game is 447, 18.2 is 79.