Predator 314 or Original Shaft?

[X Breaker]

Then how do you account for the fact that such a huge percentage of top pros use low deflection shafts???

Hi Jim,

Where did you learn of this fact that a hugh percentage of top pros are using 314 shafts? What year was the data collected? What exactly is hugh? Is it over 50%?

I would assume that top pros means pros who have won at least one major tournament.

How about pros in the World Pool Championship?

Are most World Champions using 314? Other than Alex, who else won a World Championship with a low deflection shaft?

What percentage of World Pool Champions played with a 314 when he won a Wolrd Pool Championship?

Let's see, Alex, Ralf, Efren, Earl, Chao, Wu, Mika, ...

So, maybe about 10%?

How about in this years World Pool Championship, how many percentage of pros are using 314 shafts?

I have never heard that a hugh percentage of pros are using 314. I do know, when I go to tournaments such as the World Pool Championship, US Open, WPBA, All Japan Championship, IPT... that I noticed a lot of players were using originals or switching from 314 to something else.

Some examples are Ronnie Alcano (from 314 to a one piece original shaft), Dennis Orcullo (from 314 to Mezz), Wu (Southwest one piece original shaft), Bustamante (Bear butt with a one piece custom shaft), John Schimdt (Bobby Hunter with a one piece custom shaft), Luat (from 314 to Lambros custom one piece custom shaft), Kuo (Samsara original shafts), Johnny Archer (Scorpion shaft), Earl (Cuetec), Yang (Southwest with Southwest shaft), Mika (Mezz shaft), Chao (Keith Andy with one piece original shaft) ...

There are top pros who play with 314, such as Corey Deuel, Alex the Lion, Ralf Souquet, but I do not see the number being dominating at all.

Since a lot of the names mentioned (Dennis, Wu, Yang...) do not have a cue sponsor and are free to use whatever shaft they want(they can also get whatever they want from Predator for free), the fact that they choose not to use 314 means, at least to me, that they do not think 314 will increase their chance of winning, dont you agree?

About the smoothness of the stroke, I agree with Ted.

I started a thread a while ago about what Mr. Kuo (1st runner up on WPC 2005, 3rd in WPC 2004) told me about how to strike the ball and compensate for "deflection" when we talked in the US Open. Basically, he said if you stroke the cue ball with a very fluid and smooth stroke, you do not need to make too much adjustment. He also said that most players are striking the ball too hard, which is really useless, and that hard strike pushes the ball and greatly increases squirt.

I am not sure if a robot is capable of producing a smooth stroke rather than a hard strike. Since I do not stroke the ball like a robot, I do not know why I should decide what is good or bad for my game based on a robotic test.

I am not saying 314 is a bad shaft. I am just saying there is no envidence, as far as I can tell, that a hugh amount of top pros are using them.

That is all I am trying to say.

 

[av84fun]

mipponbilliards...<<Where did you learn of this fact that a hugh percentage of top pros are using 314 shafts? What year was the data collected? What exactly is hugh? Is it over 50%?>>

From the Predator web site. And yes...the figure stated by Predator is 65%

<<I am not saying 314 is a bad shaft. I am just saying there is no envidence, as far as I can tell, that a hugh amount of top pros are using them.>>

Again, I am merely going by the Predator statements and the list of players they show on their web sites. I assume they are not engaging in false advertising...but of course, I could be wrong.

However, on the female side since you mention world champions, Allison Fisher, of course, uses a low deflection shaft and has won more titles than all other WPBA players combined.

Regards,
Jim

 

[X Breaker]

However, on the female side since you mention world champions, Allison Fisher, of course, uses a low deflection shaft and has won more titles than all other WPBA players combined.

Regards,
Jim

Hi Jim,

I agree Allsion Fisher is certainly the best female player right now on the ranking system.
Allison Fisher plays with CueTec with a regular shaft.
I hope Predator has not put her name on their web site as well.
2005 US Open Champion, 2005 Tournament of Champion, and 2005 WPBA Nationals Champion Ga young Kim, plays with a one piece regular shaft as well.
So do Monica Webb, Helena Thornfeldt, and Jeanette Lee.
There are some top ranking girls using the 314 shaft such as Karen Corr, and Kelly Fisher.
Again, the percentage is not dominating, certainly not 60% among the top pros.


Richard

 

[Cornerman]

However, on the female side since you mention world champions, Allison Fisher, of course, uses a low deflection shaft and

I've never heard this. It might be low deflection (beam deflection), but as far as I've ever heard, it's a regular Cuetec shaft with normal squirt (cueball deflection) characteristics. Her entire cue is shorter than normal, so I don't know if the shaft is also shorter. Kevin Varney would obviously know.

Fred

 

[JoeyInCali]

From the Predator web site. And yes...the figure stated by Predator is 65%

Because they counted BK2's as well.

 

[X Breaker]

From the Predator web site. And yes...the figure stated by Predator is 65%

Because they counted BK2's as well.

What I cannot understand is how do you come up with a percentage of players(what is the total number of players in the US or the world, how do they define "pro"?) they did in their claim?

How do they define "top ranking"? Did they care to explain it along with their data?

I am not even awared of an official ranking system in place in the US to begin with...

Are they going by the WPA ranking?

I hope they are not using the UPA ranking, since lots of top players are not playing in the UPA. The UPA is only holding a few tournaments a year.

Then we have top international players who are not in the UPA anyway.

What about the women, do they calculate them seperately? Are they going by WPBA ranking? What about European and Asian top players such as Jasmin, and Shin Mei?

Does anyone know for sure how many pool players are there in this world? I would love to know this data if it is possible to obtain.

How was this % obtained if the total number of player is not known?

I am not saying that is what Predator is doing, but the following is a possibility.

If they pick a tour, give all the top 100 ranked players a free BK, BK2, and/or 314 shafts, classified them as "top pro in the nation" then divide 100 by the total number of players on this tour, or may be not even all the players but only those who are actively partcipating, which is around may be 200, they will have a set of data showing a very high precentage of "top ranking pro" using their products.

It is not false advertisement, I am sure they will tell you it is a matter of intepretation.

 

[X Breaker]

I've never heard this. It might be low deflection (beam deflection), but as far as I've ever heard, it's a regular Cuetec shaft with normal squirt (cueball deflection) characteristics. Her entire cue is shorter than normal, so I don't know if the shaft is also shorter. Kevin Varney would obviously know.

Fred

Her shaft is shorter, with a stiffer taper, but it certainly is not a 314.

Richard

 

[Nick B]

I always like Predator threads

I'll start by stating the I play with 314's. I consider myself a equipment snob. If their is a 12 step program somewhere please send me a link. Cues, Balls, Cloth and Tables I like them just so.

For my playing cue I have:
3- 314's
1-Z
1-OB1
1- McD I-2 (Garbage)
1-De Roo radial
2-Ash Snooker shafts

Each shaft including the 3 314's play different. I am of the opinion that Predator has done a lot for pushing the technology of shaft construction forward. So why did you buy the other shafts Nick? Well because I wanted to try them...really try them. My cue. Multiple sessions. Not just striking a couple of balls on someone else's equipment.

Why do I play with Predator? I like to spin the rock. It's my way and I believe that you are rarely exactly where you want to be. Therefore a little this or that is almost always required. Further to this power diminishes the acceptance of the pocket to accept the slightly misplaced shot. Thus spinning to shape works for me. My style plays best with 314 type performance. I find the OB-1 not quite as linear in response and the Z a little to touchy for my liking. Could I play with a conventional shaft. Yes, sure. Everything is a trade off. With the predator their are some shots that you simply can't make.

For what it's worth I too think Fred can't play << insert all 11 goofy faces here >>

Nick "I can't play either" Beretanos

 

[Andrew Manning]

Hi Andrew,

Just a side note that I was pretty impressed in an earlier thread that you mentioned you now take into account spin as part of the difficulty factor in weighing your options.

Chris

Well, I always like compliments, but I'm not sure what you mean. Doesn't everybody take spin into account when appraising the difficulty of a shot? It seems to me that all players who are any good, even those with very limited physics understanding, know that spin adds a lot of complicating factors to a shot.

-Andrew

 

[Andrew Manning]

With the predator there are some shots that you simply can't make.

Most of your post is very well reasoned, but you just threw this line in as if it were uncontested fact, and I think it needs backing up. What shots are you referring to?

-Andrew

 

[X Breaker]

Av84fun,

About the ladies, here is the current ranking from the WPBA web site, www.wpba.com, under "ranking".

I have listed along their names to my best knowledge what shafts they are using:

1. Allison Fisher: regular
2. Karen Corr: 314
3. Monica Webb: regular
4. Kelly Fisher: 314
5. Vivian Villarreal: regular
6. Ga Young Kim: regular
7. Helena Thornfeldt: regular
8. Kim Shaw: 314
9. Jeanette Lee: regular
10.Sarah Ellerby: smart

It is very clear that 3 out of 10 of the top 10 ranking pro on the WPBA tour play with a 314 shaft. The percentage is 33.3%.

About BK, I do not think any of them breaks with a BK, but I could be wrong, because I do not know what Kim Shaw breaks with. I also believe Karen Corr might be breaking with a Dufferin with a 314 shaft, but I am not sure. I am sure Sarah Ellerby uses a Lucasi break cue or something made by Universal, but I do not know what shaft she has, although I can certainly say it cannot be a 314.

Here is the break cues that I know they use.

1. Allison Fisher: Cuetec, regular shaft
2. Karen Corr: Not sure
3. Monica Webb: Sledgehammer, regular shaft
4. Kelly Fisher: X Breaker, regular shaft
5. Vivian Villarreal: Bender, regular shaft
6. Ga Young Kim: Searing, regular shaft
7. Helena Thornfeldt: Unknown brand, regular shaft
8. Kim Shaw: Not sure
9. Jeanette Lee: Jacoby, regular shaft
10.Sarah Ellerby: Not sure

If Kim Shaw is not using a BK/BK2, then the percentage of top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA breaking a BK or BK2 is ZERO.

The above is the best analysis I can offer, with data as accuarate as I can provide them.

From the above data,

It can be seen that:

1. 66.6% of the top ranking top 10 pros on the WPBA are playing with something other than a 314. Only 33.3% of the top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA are playing with a 314 shaft.

2. no more than 10% top ranking pros on the WPBA tour breaks with a BK or BK2.

It is obvious that the percentage is much less than 65%.

As far as I know, there is no official ranking of men like that of the women, so although I would love to include the men's data, I do not know how to obtain them objectively.


Richard

 

[Nick B]

Most of your post is very well reasoned, but you just threw this line in as if it were uncontested fact, and I think it needs backing up. What shots are you referring to?

-Andrew

OK Andrew, I'll start with this one. You need to go down table but can't get to the rail or draw off the five. Jack-Up and get the cue ball to jump up off the one...over the five hit the rail and down table. Due to the low end mass and flex of pred it's really hard to make the ball jump.

CueTable Help

EDITED - Sorry about WEI drawing and the screwy line

With a conventional shaft this is child's play. Do you need more?

Nick

 

[av84fun]

nipponbilliards...<<I have listed along their names to my best knowledge what shafts they are using:

1. Allison Fisher: regular>>

HUH?? Cue-Tec cues do NOT use "regular" shafts!

According to Cue-Tec

"After 2 years of extensive development, Cuetec cues is proud to announce the ultimate in maple shaft technology. This laminated maple shaft, is reinforced by a high modulus graphite crossbeam that extends the entire length. The wood is hand selected from the finest North American maple available and then C-N-C Computer cut to ensure an exact fit for the graphite crossbeam. The Cuetec VORTEX™shaft has been design to fit all Cuetec cues."


According the the WPBA website, Ellerby plays a Universal Smartshaft...also a low deflection NOT "regular" cue. So, of the Top 10 payers, 50% use non-regular, low deflection shafts.

Adding in Gerda, who uses a 314 (or Z shaft...I'm not positive which) boosts the percentage to 54.5%.

Your data re: BREAK CUES is irrelevant to the discussion but are also wrong.

But by your own admission, 33.33% of the Top 10 pros use a SINGLE BRAND...Predator...which out of the 50+ widely popular cue makers is a HIGHLY significant percentage.

As noted, I have no affiliation with Predator. Do you have one with some other cue maker?

Regards,
Jim

 

[GTeye]

Just out of curiosity, why are you only taking 10 people as the basis of your statistical data?

It doesn't surprise me in the least that less in the top 10 would be using over the stats and data for the top 100. More in the top 10 are probably people who have been playing for many years and trained in their mind to use a standard shaft. Even so, 33%, if correct, out of 10 is still an impressive figure, imo and I'm willing to bet if you take into account the top 100 or 250 players you will see that number rise up dramatically.

I use a predator and I like a predator but it's because it's what I have become used to. All shafts are going to have their trade offs, for me the benefits outweight the drawbacks for my play level and style for others it may not. Gawd, this subject has been beaten to death for far too long.

 

[X Breaker]

Jim, with all due respect, please reread my post. I was referring to 314 shaft, because that is what the Predator data, which you quoted, was all about.

For your information, Allision does not use a Vortex shaft by Cuetec. I am confused why you would take the time to quote the spec of a Vortex shaft in your post.

Gerda is not in the top ten ranking unfortunately.

I am looking at the current top 10 players on the WPBA ranking system. I thought it was made very clear.

Break cue is very relevent, because Predator also counts players using their breaking cue as part of the 65% that they claim.

I am not here to fight with you, if you like to use 314 and want to believe that over 50% of the pros on the WPBA top 10 ranking are using them, that is fine.

You can add all the players using 314 products, and discard everyone else, and claim that 100% of pros are using 314 for all I care.

I was merely trying to present the data in an objective manner.

There is no need to get defensive when the data does not fit your belief.

You kept saying I was wrong but what you said does not really disagree with what I stated.

Thank you.
Richard

Gteye:

I picked the top 10 players because we were talking about top pros as quoted in the original post by Jim.

I do not think top 100 or top 125 players on the WPBA ranking stystem would be classified as "top pros". At least, in my opinion, I do not think I should use that.

I am not saying I think 314 is not good or not being used by any pros or anything like that. I am also not here to judge your choice of shaft.


Thank you.
Richard


Here is my original post:

Av84fun,

About the ladies, here is the current ranking from the WPBA web site, www.wpba.com, under "ranking".

I have listed along their names to my best knowledge what shafts they are using:

1. Allison Fisher: regular
2. Karen Corr: 314
3. Monica Webb: regular
4. Kelly Fisher: 314
5. Vivian Villarreal: regular
6. Ga Young Kim: regular
7. Helena Thornfeldt: regular
8. Kim Shaw: 314
9. Jeanette Lee: regular
10.Sarah Ellerby: smart

It is very clear that 3 out of 10 of the top 10 ranking pro on the WPBA tour play with a 314 shaft. The percentage is 33.3%.

About BK, I do not think any of them breaks with a BK, but I could be wrong, because I do not know what Kim Shaw breaks with. I also believe Karen Corr might be breaking with a Dufferin with a 314 shaft, but I am not sure. I am sure Sarah Ellerby uses a Lucasi break cue or something made by Universal, but I do not know what shaft she has, although I can certainly say it cannot be a 314.

Here is the break cues that I know they use.

1. Allison Fisher: Cuetec, regular shaft
2. Karen Corr: Not sure
3. Monica Webb: Sledgehammer, regular shaft
4. Kelly Fisher: X Breaker, regular shaft
5. Vivian Villarreal: Bender, regular shaft
6. Ga Young Kim: Searing, regular shaft
7. Helena Thornfeldt: Unknown brand, regular shaft
8. Kim Shaw: Not sure
9. Jeanette Lee: Jacoby, regular shaft
10.Sarah Ellerby: Not sure

If Kim Shaw is not using a BK/BK2, then the percentage of top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA breaking a BK or BK2 is ZERO.

The above is the best analysis I can offer, with data as accuarate as I can provide them.

From the above data,

It can be seen that:

1. 66.6% of the top ranking top 10 pros on the WPBA are playing with something other than a 314. Only 33.3% of the top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA are playing with a 314 shaft.

2. no more than 10% top ranking pros on the WPBA tour breaks with a BK or BK2.

It is obvious that the percentage is much less than 65%.

As far as I know, there is no official ranking of men like that of the women, so although I would love to include the men's data, I do not know how to obtain them objectively.

 

[Nick B]

Av84fun,

About the ladies, here is the current ranking from the WPBA web site, www.wpba.com, under "ranking".

I have listed along their names to my best knowledge what shafts they are using:

1. Allison Fisher: regular
2. Karen Corr: 314
3. Monica Webb: regular
4. Kelly Fisher: 314
5. Vivian Villarreal: regular
6. Ga Young Kim: regular
7. Helena Thornfeldt: regular
8. Kim Shaw: 314
9. Jeanette Lee: regular
10.Sarah Ellerby: smart

It is very clear that 3 out of 10 of the top 10 ranking pro on the WPBA tour play with a 314 shaft. The percentage is 33.3%.

About BK, I do not think any of them breaks with a BK, but I could be wrong, because I do not know what Kim Shaw breaks with. I also believe Karen Corr might be breaking with a Dufferin with a 314 shaft, but I am not sure. I am sure Sarah Ellerby uses a Lucasi break cue or something made by Universal, but I do not know what shaft she has, although I can certainly say it cannot be a 314.

Here is the break cues that I know they use.

1. Allison Fisher: Cuetec, regular shaft
2. Karen Corr: Not sure
3. Monica Webb: Sledgehammer, regular shaft
4. Kelly Fisher: X Breaker, regular shaft
5. Vivian Villarreal: Bender, regular shaft
6. Ga Young Kim: Searing, regular shaft
7. Helena Thornfeldt: Unknown brand, regular shaft
8. Kim Shaw: Not sure
9. Jeanette Lee: Jacoby, regular shaft
10.Sarah Ellerby: Not sure

If Kim Shaw is not using a BK/BK2, then the percentage of top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA breaking a BK or BK2 is ZERO.

The above is the best analysis I can offer, with data as accuarate as I can provide them.

From the above data,

It can be seen that:

1. 66.6% of the top ranking top 10 pros on the WPBA are playing with something other than a 314. Only 33.3% of the top 10 ranking pros on the WPBA are playing with a 314 shaft.

2. no more than 10% top ranking pros on the WPBA tour breaks with a BK or BK2.

It is obvious that the percentage is much less than 65%.

As far as I know, there is no official ranking of men like that of the women, so although I would love to include the men's data, I do not know how to obtain them objectively.


Richard

Richard,
Interesting data...but I think a little misleading. Everyone uses statistics to suite their perspective. What if I only included the Top 2? They are head and shoulders better? Why Top 10? Lets be honest here. Most TOP PRO's play what they are paid to play with or are given. End of discussion full stop. From here we can debate anything. Regardless of Predators claim (I'm sure they have stats to reflect their claims) I would be curious to see a survey to say the Top 100 BCA finishers over the last 5 years.

Market share is king and they own the crown. When they can get $200.00 for a mass produced shaft they must be doing something right.

Thankfully the value of the cue does not determine the outcome of the match...otherwise you'd be spot me the 7

Nick

 

[GTeye]

Where on the predator website does it say top 10 ?

It'd be you, using just the top 10, who are trying to bolster your own data and opinions by not expanding to more than the top 10 ti disprove something a company didn't claim in the first place.

If you take a professional as someone who makes money from playing pool in sanctioned tournaments and you have 1500 people across the nation who fit that bill, just to pick a fictional number, then how many of them are the "top" ranked professionals? To me it certainly isn't just the top 10, the top 10 are the cream of the crop they aren't the "top"professionals. I'd go so far as to say the top 100-200 are the "top professionals" in billiards and I think that is what predators website is trying to get across is that out of all these people who play professionally, the follwing amount use our shafts.

Perhaps you are right and the numbers are off and given data to back that up I would agree with it but using a pool of 10 because it's easier and convenient doesn't prove a damn thing.

 

[Cornerman]

HUH?? Cue-Tec cues do NOT use "regular" shafts!

According to Cue-Tec

"After 2 years of extensive development, Cuetec cues is proud to announce the ultimate in maple shaft technology. This laminated maple shaft, is reinforced by a high modulus graphite crossbeam that extends the entire length. The wood is hand selected from the finest North American maple available and then C-N-C Computer cut to ensure an exact fit for the graphite crossbeam. The Cuetec VORTEX™shaft has been design to fit all Cuetec cues."

FWIW, Cuetec makes four or five different styles of shaft. To my knowledge, none of them claim to have low squirt characteristcs.

What you've described may be a laminated shaft with lower beam deflection, but there's nothing in its description that suggests it's low squirt/cueball deflection. They don't seem to be claiming that it is low squirt either. I've assumed all along that when you say "low deflection" you're talking about low squirt (which is why the word 'deflection' shouldn't be used at all when talking about the cueball motion).

Fred

 

[Andrew Manning]

...Jack-Up and get the cue ball to jump up off the one...over the five and down table. Due to the low end mass and flex of pred it's really hard to make the ball jump.

With a conventional shaft this is child's play. Do you need more?

Although I think we may have different definition's of "child's play", I agree that it's very difficult to get the ball airborne with a predator. Are there any non-airborne shots you know of that become very difficult with a predator?

-Andrew

 

[Cornerman]

Where on the predator website does it say top 10 ?

It'd be you, using just the top 10, who are trying to bolster your own data and opinions by not expanding to more than the top 10 ti disprove something a company didn't claim in the first place..

I think data on the top 10 is fine, as long as the data is clearly shown as top 10. That's absolutely fair game and proper. What wouldn't have been proper is if he listed the top 10 and made some kind of conclusion on the entire population. But, I think Richard was very clear just showing the top 10 and stating "Top 10."

When a company says "65%" and doesn't define clearly what the n-population is, a little clarity is in order. The basic question of course is "who are the 65%"? In the statistics world, a random sample of 10% of the population is fair game, at least to get some kind of indication on the plausability of that number.

But that's just statistics, and obviously a few of you don't care for that. So, I'd suggest a true poll. How many of the top players do we go before we think 65% is or isn't a good number?

I'd go so far as to say the top 100-200 are the "top professionals" in billiards and I think that is what predators website is trying to get across is that out of all these people who play professionally, the follwing amount use our shafts.

For 100 players, that would mean 65 use a Predator shaft. For 200, that would mean 130. Given the analysis of the top 10, is there any reason to believe you'd get to 65 out of 100? Or 130 out of 200?


Fred