predator...hard to control?

[drivermaker]

"completely missing easy slower english shots." Given the Predator technology, the swerve dominant idea makes 100% sense to me.

Fred

But swerve is a result of spin. Wouldn't it have more swerve or quicker swerve due to more spin?

 

[Fred Agnir]

But swerve is a result of spin. Wouldn't it have more swerve or quicker swerve due to more spin?

What I mean is that since there is less squirt, a player will only notice the swerve. I don't think there's more swerve, but since there's less squirt, swerve dominates the cueball path.

Fred

 

[drivermaker]

What I mean is that since there is less squirt, a player will only notice the swerve. I don't think there's more swerve, but since there's less squirt, swerve dominates the cueball path.

Fred

So are you saying that the amount of swerve is the same on all shafts and that it's just taking a separate course than what you would be used to from one to another?

Btw Fred...I'm not trying to nit-pick or get on your case, I'm really trying to get some insights and figure it out. I don't have a clue.

 

[Fred Agnir]

So are you saying that the amount of swerve is the same on all shafts and that it's just taking a separate course than what you would be used to from one to another?.

That's what I'm saying.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

That's what I'm saying.

Fred

I understand that we are talking about shaft deflection, but looking at the complete shot there is also, "Throw". Since you are talking about using english. And not to forget, as and example using outside english to make a shot, that the squirt or otherwise called deflection will balance the shot out with the throw.

Now add speed to the shot, and it all changes again. Slower the speed, the less the squirt but greater the throw.

How do the aiming systems that do not allow the player to see the complete shot work now? I'ld really better not say "Opps xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx." Removed this coment.

EDIT per Grabber. Change the word "speed" to the word "harder". So it should state, the harder your hit a shot the greater the deflection (squirt).Thanks

 

[BRKNRUN]

I understand that we are talking about shaft deflection, but looking at the complete shot there is also, "Throw". Since you are talking about using english. And not to forget, as and example using outside english to make a shot, that the squirt or otherwise called deflection will balance the shot out with the throw.
Now add speed to the shot, and it all changes again. Slower the speed, the less the squirt but greater the throw.
How do the aiming systems that do not allow the player to see the complete shot work now? I'ld really better not say "Opps xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx." Removed this coment.

The word "feel" is fast becomeing a four letter word....(oh wait....it already is)...

I think aiming systems are for the "base" aim point. Yes adjustments may be necessary from there for (throw/ deflection/ swerve/ etc)

Yes there is feel involved, but your bolded words above are a "systematic" process of gaining the feel for (throw / deflection / swerve/ etc)

The feel (in my opinion) is a derivative of a process or system or method etc. to gain that feel....(no matter how simple the process may be)

 

[Fred Agnir]

I understand that we are talking about shaft deflection, but looking at the complete shot there is also, "Throw". .

I generally don't discuss throw because of two reasons:

1) Throw isn't anywhere near as important as swerve.

2) Most players think that the reaction they see is throw when it's more likely swerve. Spin-induced throw works in the same direction as swerve, so that's why it's misleading.

That is, I think throw is a red-herring. Especiallly when the balls are relatively clean.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

The word "feel" is fast becomeing a four letter word....(oh wait....it already is)...

I think aiming systems are for the "base" aim point. Yes adjustments may be necessary from there for (throw/ deflection/ swerve/ etc)

Yes there is feel involved, but your bolded words above are a "systematic" process of gaining the feel for (throw / deflection / swerve/ etc)

The feel (in my opinion) is a derivative of a process or system or method etc. to gain that feel....(no matter how simple the process may be)

You are a wise man. Yes there is F..f.f..eel involved here which in fact is the artistry within the player.

Unfortunately systems not allowing players to see the entire shot are limiting the players ability to develop this tactic. Some of the aiming systems are helpful to define the strike point when eyes are blurry and such. But in fact the aim is truly the line from the back of the object ball to the back of the pocket. This is the aiming system. It is this single line that we affect or alter based upon how we make our contact. Imagine now seeing this line move left or right or even stay straight after our cue ball makes contact. Its a visual, it's simple and we know how playing conditions can affect this line because this line is our focus.

So as we talk about shaft deflection and such, isn't it much easier to see this line and adjust our stroke based upon what is happening through experience? And isn't this how we develop our feel and use that feel to our advantage of making balls?

Not seeing (aiming) this line as we shoot is limiting our experience.

 

[drivermaker]

That's what I'm saying.

Fred

In addition to that, I also think throw IS involved and the same principal applies, especially for shots with speeds reducing the amount of swerve. It's not hitting the OB where you expect and the throw is zinging it off line before it hits the hole.

 

[Rod]

No, it doesn't. The aiming systems by Hal Houle will work for centerball shots for all cues. But with firm english, they have been built on the idea that a cueball will squirt. A Predator doesn't work with any of Hal's Systems when using english and firm speed.

It's a pretty common theme for people who don't like Predators. That is, it's always the issue of "losing speed control on soft english shots," or worse, "completely missing easy slower english shots." Given the Predator technology, the swerve dominant idea makes 100% sense to me.

Fred

Oops, are the people that talked with Hal aware that his system won't Work? And yes, I agree, swerve dominant does make sense provided there is less squirt.

I surely don't aim or stroke any different just picking up a different cue. Heck I swaped cues back and forth using extreme spin and speed with both. Balls still went in fine, shot come off as expected with an occasional miss with either cue. Seemed normal, I guess I just don't see a big difference. I will say, if anything, I may have "sensed" hitting balls a little fatter with a pred at a distance. In other words, line A with my cue and line B with a pred. I'd have to try it again sometime to be sure and slow speed spin shots as well.

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Rod

 

[pete lafond]

I generally don't discuss throw because of two reasons:

1) Throw isn't anywhere near as important as swerve.

2) Most players think that the reaction they see is throw when it's more likely swerve. Spin-induced throw works in the same direction as swerve, so that's why it's misleading.

That is, I think throw is a red-herring. Especiallly when the balls are relatively clean.

Fred

I understand what you are saying though swerve has also its set of variables as well. The thinner the nap, the more delayed the swerve. You must agree that swerve does not exist if you hit the ball at a slow speed, middle left or right english. And in doing so, the OB's path is altered as can be see in shots were there is no room for the cue ball to go past a blocker. However the shot can still be made without swerve. I have tested this by striking the cue ball with english as it rides alongside a straight stick. Once the cue makes contact with the object ball at an intended path to miss the shot, surprisingly the OB went into the pocket (thrown). Why did this occur?


Edited - Forgot to also mentioned. When hitting head on no throw existed.

 

[Fred Agnir]

I understand what you are saying though swerve has also its set of variables as well. The thinner the nap, the more delayed the swerve.

I rarely play on true napped cloth, so I don't know about this. That being said, nap effects are different than swerve effects. And, as I've said many times, swerve IMO is the most damaging of the english effects.

You must agree that swerve does not exist if you hit the ball at a slow speed, middle left or right english.

No, and I don't know anyone who would agree. Only the cueball is generally discussed with swerve.

And in doing so, the OB's path is altered as can be see in shots were there is no room for the cue ball to go past a blocker.

I have never seen anyone show me this. I believe Bob Jewett has an open $$$ challenge to anyone who can successfully show an Object Ball swerving.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

if anything, I may have "sensed" hitting balls a little fatter with a pred at a distance. In other words, line A with my cue and line B with a pred. I'd have to try it again sometime to be sure and slow speed spin shots as well.

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Rod

This would be consistent with "less squirt." The shot comes up thicker due to the swerve to the right. And in pool, it doesn't take much change in the cueball's path to profoundly affect the object ball's.

Fred

 

[pete lafond]

No, and I don't know anyone who would agree. Only the cueball is generally discussed with swerve.

Sorry for poor communication on my part, I meant the cue ball.

I have never seen anyone show me this. I believe Bob Jewett has an open $$$ challenge to anyone who can successfully show an Object Ball swerving.

Fred

Try it as I mentioned. have the cue ball travel along side a stick so that it can not deviate from a straight line. Make sure contact to the OB is at an angle.

 

[Fred Agnir]

Try it as I mentioned. have the cue ball travel along side a stick so that it can not deviate from a straight line. Make sure contact to the OB is at an angle.

There's no doubt that throw exists and does some mean things to our shots. I'm just saying that swerve is a bigger effect and that what most people attribute to throw, the majority of it is actually swerve. Consider Rod's shot. I think it's clear that it's swerve that causes him to come up fatter, not an increase in spin, and not an increase in throw.

Fred

 

[Gabber]

Mmmmmmmmmm....

I understand that we are talking about shaft deflection, but looking at the complete shot there is also, "Throw". Since you are talking about using english. And not to forget, as and example using outside english to make a shot, that the squirt or otherwise called deflection will balance the shot out with the throw.

Now add speed to the shot, and it all changes again. Slower the speed, the less the squirt but greater the throw.

How do the aiming systems that do not allow the player to see the complete shot work now? I'ld really better not say "Opps xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx." Removed this coment.

Now add speed to the shot, and it all changes again. Slower the speed, the less the squirt

........but is this true?
Is squirt affected by speed?
I dont think so. The principals applied to BHE/pivoting would seem to suggest the opposite.

JMO of course.

Gabber

 

[pete lafond]

........but is this true?
Is squirt affected by speed?
I dont think so. The principals applied to BHE/pivoting would seem to suggest the opposite.

JMO of course.

Gabber

Cahnge "Speed" to "Hard". The harder you hit the ball the greater the deflection or squirt. Bad choice of words on my part.

 

[pete lafond]

There's no doubt that throw exists and does some mean things to our shots. I'm just saying that swerve is a bigger effect and that what most people attribute to throw, the majority of it is actually swerve. Consider Rod's shot. I think it's clear that it's swerve that causes him to come up fatter, not an increase in spin, and not an increase in throw.

Fred

Thanks Fred. Also Gabby corrected me when I spoke about the amount of deflection (squirt) being affected by speed. I meant to say how hard you hit the cue ball the greater the deflection. As we all know "how hard" and "what speed" are two different things. I'm on overload today for some reason.

Anyway I do understand what you are saying about the greater effects of swerve and I agree. Also, having agreed that these variations affect the outcome of a shot is even more reason that a player should learn a solid aiming system that gives visualization to the entire shot or otherwise miss out on the feel aspect of their shot making. And later learn to aim correctly.

 

[Gabber]

To me its the same thing Pete. eg, you cant hit a ball hard at slow speed.
The subject of Seed/Squirt has been discussed on many threads both here and in other forums. I cant remember there being a consensus one way or the other.

Gabber

 

[Rod]

There's no doubt that throw exists and does some mean things to our shots. I'm just saying that swerve is a bigger effect and that what most people attribute to throw, the majority of it is actually swerve. Consider Rod's shot. I think it's clear that it's swerve that causes him to come up fatter, not an increase in spin, and not an increase in throw.

Fred

Now wait a minute Fred, surely you don't believe that swerve makes me hit it fatter. Squirt if anything is the factor. I mean afterall this shot has way to much speed for swerve. It falls into the same category as spin and throw, so small its almost non existant.

I compensate for swerve all the time but this shot and many more isn't one of them. If you believe a predator has less squirt (which you obviously do), this is surely a time to believe in such.

Rod~~ thinks the swerve bug bit Fred hard