Predator vantage shafts

[smashmouth]

yeah I say make a shaft with zero deflection or not at all

at this point these incremental decreases do nothing and really...ld shafts in general are a nice option but ultimately are not the "revolution" in cues the manufacturers would have you believe

OB has veered into this realm slightly imo with their new "SLS technology" and obviously Pred has always led the wave here

 

[shanesinnott]

yeah I say make a shaft with zero deflection or not at all

It is not possible to make a shaft with zero deflection, so are you suggesting that all cuemakers stop making shafts? Would be difficult to play pool with just the butt no?

OB has veered into this realm slightly imo with their new "SLS technology" and obviously Pred has always led the wave here

Not sure what you mean here? What is SLS technology?

 

[9Ballr]

Actually, Predator now has a 10% MAP so it would be $310.50 for a Vantage shaft sold online (based on a $345 MSRP)

On a side note, I do think it is good that Predator is coming out with a new shaft. We did too a few months ago. Change and innovation from your competitors prompts all of us to improve and produce better products. In the end, the consumer will be the winner if we all continue to produce better performing and more innovative products.

But these LD shafts are NOT better than traditional shafts.
The player aims's differently but the shaft it self is no better.

The only winner here is the LD shaft maker's bottom line.
That's why those "innovations" are being made.

 

[shanesinnott]

But these LD shafts are NOT better than traditional shafts.
The player aims's differently but the shaft it self is no better.

The only winner here is the LD shaft maker's bottom line.
That's why those "innovations" are being made.

Saying that LD shafts are not better than traditional shafts is a very definitive statement, no? Is this a fact or just your opinion? If it is a fact, can you explain why and how it is the true?

As has been discussed in hundreds of threads on AZ before, 'better' is very subjective unless you clearly define the criteria that a shaft has to meet in order to be considered 'better' than another shaft. Is a Schon shaft better than a Joss shaft? If so, why and how do you prove it?

There are hundreds of thousands of pool players that use LD shafts that would probably disagree with you that they are not 'better' than traditional shafts.

 

[9Ballr]

Saying that LD shafts are not better than traditional shafts is a very definitive statement, no?

Yes

Is this a fact or just your opinion?

Fact

If it is a fact, can you explain why and how it is the true?

Better feel. Less hassle in the long run. And I can play any custom cue and adopt quickly.
Why is it that most custom cue makers are still selling their cues with regular shafts? And many are people who are making cues that are thousands of dollars. Do you really think they can't make the same or ....'better'... LD shafts that the LD makers.
Or do you actually think that if LD's were indeed superior to traditional shafts that they wouldn't sell it with their cues???
They do it because the solid wood shafts give far superior feel, play much better, (masse's, moving an object ball around another ball that's in the way, and most action in general) and are simply better in every aspect.
Another side bonus, has nothing to do with quality, is that one certainly doesn't have to worry about this bs about a "better" shaft that "I just gotta get" coming out every 3-4 years.

Is a Schon shaft better than a Joss shaft?

No.
Those are two traditional shafts and neither is, in my opinion better than the other.

If so, why and how do you prove it?
[/QUOTE

They are both at about the same quality.

There are hundreds of thousands of pool players that use LD shafts that would probably disagree with you that they are not 'better' than traditional shafts.

That's an exaggeration if there ever was one.

I can also throw out some words like that too and say that there are hundreds of thousands of pool players who buy LD shafts and then you see 90% (heck let's make it 99% since we're making stuff up on the spot) of them on sale three months later because they're going back to traditional shafts.

 

[trob]

Please tell me how this is fact? What extensive scientific testing have you done to make this fact?

When you think of all the ld shafts that predator/mezz/ob/tiger alone sell ..not even including all the custom makers that our now making low deflection shaft 100 thousand really isn't that big of a number lol I don't think you realize how many cue makers our putting out an ld shaft.

That being said it's all in what you like. I don't know if it helps me I just know I like the way it hits.. that promotes confidence and that helps me run more racks.

Yes



Fact



Better feel. Less hassle in the long run. And I can play any custom cue and adopt quickly.
Why is it that most custom cue makers are still selling their cues with regular shafts? And many are people who are making cues that are thousands of dollars. Do you really think they can't make the same or ....'better'... LD shafts that the LD makers.
Or do you actually think that if LD's were indeed superior to traditional shafts that they wouldn't sell it with their cues???
They do it because the solid wood shafts give far superior feel, play much better, (masse's, moving an object ball around another ball that's in the way, and most action in general) and are simply better in every aspect.
Another side bonus, has nothing to do with quality, is that one certainly doesn't have to worry about this bs about a "better" shaft that "I just gotta get" coming out every 3-4 years.




No.
Those are two traditional shafts and neither is, in my opinion better than the other.

If so, why and how do you prove it?
[/QUOTE

They are both at about the same quality.



That's an exaggeration if there ever was one.

I can also throw out some words like that too and say that there are hundreds of thousands of pool players who buy LD shafts and then you see 90% (heck let's make it 99% since we're making stuff up on the spot) of them on sale three months later because they're going back to traditional shafts.

 

[poolguy4u]

:woot:


I am so happy that the new Predator shafts cost $345.:dance:

Now I can raise the price on the rest of my shafts.k:


And why do cue makers still make an all wood shaft?:boring2:

Because it only cost $30 to make one.:smile:

 

[shinobi]

One interesting test would be to get a Vantage (12.9mm) shaft turned down to 12.75mm, then compare it with a 314-2 and see how it feels and squirts/deflects by comparison. Should use identical tips, to be fair.

 

[scsuxci]

I love Predator but think this shaft is going to flop. They already had the fat shaft
and think the bigger the worse for deflection. For me its a step backwards
for my game and real surprised they didnt go in between the 314-2 and z-2.
There not going for the North American market with this concept.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Looks to me Pred put a carbon fiber ferule extension/tennon all in one piece probably to reduce end-mass.

This may be a leading indicator of 314-3 and Z3.

 

[LHP5]

The one thing that has really kind of irked me about the new shaft is the "iMatch". WTF. Why go the apple route with a name like that? I know it's supposed to stand for intelligent matching, but come on. SMDH.

 

[RWOJO]

9ballr

9Ballr - what makes your opinion the absolute truth? Isn't there a lot of personal preference and what feels right for each player in their own hands?

You say better feel? in my opinion you get custom cue makers and 2 identical cues can hit and feel completely different - so in that aspect, production cues/shafts are more consistent and better

Less hassle in the long run? having to go back to one particular custom cue maker to have work done can cost far more and take significantly longer to be done.

Play any custom cue and adopt quickly? I would say the same thing about LD shafts, I typically shoot with a predator but picked up a cue with an OB-1 shaft on it and within the first game I adjusted to it.

Why do custom cue makers sell cues with regular shafts? because this costs them next to nothing to make, someone said about $30. The amount of work that goes into it is significantly less and they don't have to pay for the hundreds of hours of R&D that go into improving on technologies.

Custom cue makers can make LD shafts but combining the 2 statements I've already said, the consistency isn't their from product to product AND they don't want to put in countless hours of R&D and then have to raise the costs even more.

LD vs standard shaft? I don't think anyone is saying that one is superior or inferior to another, but each player has the right to try all of them and see what is right for them.

Solid wood shafts give a far superior feel? that is your opinion
Solid wood shafts play much better? that is your opinion, but as an instructor I find it far easier teaching new players using LD shafts. my opinion is that the learning curve is much better and doesn't take many many years to learn the cue and how to adjust for deflection/squirt

"masse's, moving an object ball around another ball that's in the way, and most action in general"? What facts do you have to prove this other than your own opinion? for my own playing ability, I feel any shaft with a shaped and scuffed tip can get as much action on a cue ball as any other shaft with same shape and scuffed tip (as long as same tip, radius, scuffing, stroke)

"simply better in every aspect" ? again this is your opinion

"Another side bonus, has nothing to do with quality, is that one certainly doesn't have to worry about this bs about a "better" shaft that "I just gotta get" coming out every 3-4 years. " ? so with this statement, maybe the player hasn't found what is 'just right' for them, who are you to say that they can't keep searching for the perfect butt/shaft combination that plays perfect for them?

"I can also throw out some words like that too and say that there are hundreds of thousands of pool players who buy LD shafts and then you see 90% (heck let's make it 99% since we're making stuff up on the spot) of them on sale three months later because they're going back to traditional shafts." - in my experience only a small percentage of players that try LD go back to standard shafts and those are typically the players that have been playing 20+ years and cannot (will not) change, so they go back to what they are use to.


In my opinion - I've been playing with low deflection shafts for over 8 years. If the Vantage shaft feels stiffer (like a standard shaft), 12.9 mm tip (like most standard shafts), has deflection comparable to the Z2 shaft, better grain matching, better lamination... then this will be the best LD shaft on the market. To be more forgiving than the 314^2 bc of the diameter but be as accurate as the Z^2. Yes the cost of $310 seems outrageous to some, but those players can go buy their $30-$60 standard shafts. Someone else commented that this is for the Asian market and they are partially correct - the Predator 314 FAT shaft was a hit overseas and this shaft will too. I commend Predator for trying to make improvements and pushing technology. Before predator, who else was doing this? no one, the market was all standard but Predator changed that. I'm excited to try the new shaft and to see how great it really is.

 

[tashworth19191]

I found this a very interesting read. I have used Meucci Red Dot shaft for years and then they came out with the black dot shaft. I saw an improvement in my game.

I now have the Meucci Pro Shaft and it seems to play very well. It took me some getting used to because it would not cause as much deflection as the other too. I have been playing with it for about 1 month.

Now I win the Predator drawing and the 8K-4 with the new Vantage shaft and I can't wait to try it. I guess I will hang my Meucci on the wall and start playing with the 8K-4. I full expect me game to go down until I get used to it, but I will post my impression on here once I receive the prize. I am waiting for it as we speak...

 

[RWOJO]

I found this a very interesting read. I have used Meucci Red Dot shaft for years and then they came out with the black dot shaft. I saw an improvement in my game.

I now have the Meucci Pro Shaft and it seems to play very well. It took me some getting used to because it would not cause as much deflection as the other too. I have been playing with it for about 1 month.

Now I win the Predator drawing and the 8K-4 with the new Vantage shaft and I can't wait to try it. I guess I will hang my Meucci on the wall and start playing with the 8K-4. I full expect me game to go down until I get used to it, but I will post my impression on here once I receive the prize. I am waiting for it as we speak...

Tashworth,

You will definitely notice a big difference but the adjustment will be easy. I have been testing the Vantage shaft and it is just as accurate as the Z2 shaft. So what does this mean for you and how to adjust your game? On every shot you will want to start out center ball and aim to where you normally aim without using any English. Then if you want right English you simply shift your entire cue (front and back) parallel to the right to the desired English and stroke straight through. the amount of deflection is so low the cue ball will still go straight along the original aim line and you will pocket the ball. The shaft hits great and plays amazing. Congratulations on winning the drawing.

 

[tashworth19191]

Tashworth,

You will definitely notice a big difference but the adjustment will be easy. I have been testing the Vantage shaft and it is just as accurate as the Z2 shaft. So what does this mean for you and how to adjust your game? On every shot you will want to start out center ball and aim to where you normally aim without using any English. Then if you want right English you simply shift your entire cue (front and back) parallel to the right to the desired English and stroke straight through. the amount of deflection is so low the cue ball will still go straight along the original aim line and you will pocket the ball. The shaft hits great and plays amazing. Congratulations on winning the drawing.

Very helpful post. I have read even the guy that said LD shafts are not good. Funny that all the Pros use them. I look at pool the same as I look at golf. I buy the best clubs I can afford and I have noticed that better clubs hit balls further (fact). I have also noticed that as I went from Meucci Red Dot -> Black Dot -> Pro Shafts my game improved due to the technology in the stick (fact). I have no clue what he is talking about people buy LD shafts then go back to wood shafts. I personally know 100's of players that use LD shafts and none of them when back to wood.. These are just common sensed observations and not some made up statistics.

Tom

 

[juspooln]

:woot:


I am so happy that the new Predator shafts cost $345.:dance:

Now I can raise the price on the rest of my shafts.k:


And why do cue makers still make an all wood shaft?:boring2:

Because it only cost $30 to make one.:smile:

It only cost $30 to make one..........please tell me your secret

 

[AtLarge]

... I have no clue what he is talking about people buy LD shafts then go back to wood shafts. I personally know 100's of players that use LD shafts and none of them when back to wood. ...

Shafts marketed for their low-squirt or low-cue-ball-deflection characteristics have been around now for decades. Lots of players have tried various models of the shafts and then gone back to regular-deflection shafts. Note -- not all laminated shafts produce low squirt and not all non-laminated ("solid") shafts produce high(er) squirt.

This section from Dr. Dave's website lists reasons someone might prefer one type of shaft to another: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

It only cost $30 to make one..........please tell me your secret

No secret at all. One inch square blanks are cheap. Joint collar and ferrule materiel cost as much as the blank, then add the insert. In total, minus the tip, a shaft really doesn't have much more than $30 in it. But that piece of wood has also been hanging and getting cut for more than 8-10 years.

 

[poolguy4u]

It only cost $30 to make one..........please tell me your secret

:slap:


Just go to the Atlas website and pick out what you need.

$30 will be all you need to make a good shaft as long as you have a lathe, glue, and a couple hours.

The rest is easy.


:woot:

 

[RWOJO]

Predator was the first company to really invest in trying to improve the deflection/squirt. They came out with the 314 back in 1994, Z shaft in 2003, and 2nd generation of 314 and z in 2006. Each of these changes caused a stir in the pool world. After each change other companies were trying to catch up and most were just trying to copy them.

Over the last 10 years, I would estimate that 90% of players that tried a LD shaft are still using LD shafts. Then out of the people that went back to standard shafts I would estimate that 90% of those players have been playing pool 20+ years and would not switch because they are 'too use to' the regular shaft (not willing to change).

Shafts marketed for their low-squirt or low-cue-ball-deflection characteristics have been around now for decades. Lots of players have tried various models of the shafts and then gone back to regular-deflection shafts. Note -- not all laminated shafts produce low squirt and not all non-laminated ("solid") shafts produce high(er) squirt.

This section from Dr. Dave's website lists reasons someone might prefer one type of shaft to another: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt