predicting CB motion for all types of shots

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've posted this on the BD CCB forum in the past, but I wanted to share it here also. Please let me know if you guys have any comments, suggestions, or questions.

Here's the question: How do you predict where the CB will go with different types of cut shots? My answers, including links with illustrations and examples, are below. Also, much more supporting info and links can also be found here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/30_and_90_degree_rule.html

Answers:

For a stun shot, most people know the right answer: in the tangent line direction, perpendicular to the OB direction. This is the 90-degree rule (see my Jan '04 article). If you want a more precise answer that accounts for various effects (e.g., friction and English), see my March-June '05 articles. FYI, here is a convenient one-page summary of the 90-degree rule.

For a rolling CB, the cue ball changes direction by about 30 degrees for a wide range of cut shots (1/4 to 3/4 ball hit). This is the 30 degree rule (see my April '04 article). If you want to be more precise, the angle is a little more (about 34 degrees) closer to a 1/2-ball hit and a little less (about 27 degrees) closer to a 1/4-ball or 3/4-ball hit. If you want to know how to account for speed effects, see my June '05 article. If you want an easy way to use your hand to accurately visualize the cue ball direction, use the Dr. Dave peace-sign technique (see NV 3.8). If you want to know how to precisely calibrate your hand for the 30 degree (or any other) angle, see using your hand to apply the rule. FYI, here is a convenient one-page summary of the 30-degree rule.

For a draw shot with good draw action, the trisect system is your answer (see my March '06 article). You can use a modified version of the peace-sign technique to predict the cue ball direction (see the article for illustrations and examples).

For shots "in between" all of these different cases, the cue ball will go somewhere in between the indicated directions. The only way to get a feel for how much "in between" the cue ball will go is to practice ... a lot!
 
Dave,

Glad to see you here and sharing your findings of all your work with us. I took alot of chem in college but only a couple semisters of physics. Good stuff you have.

eric.
 
Dave,

I am not sure about your rolling CB angle in relation to a 3/4 hit.

I think with rolling CB for a 3/4 hit, the angle is closer to 45 degrees, and becomes a smaller angle with forced follow spin.

I guess it all depends on how far from the CB/OB collision you are measuring the angle. I think the farthest distance away from the collision will show different angles, in respect to force follow. Rolling CB should be very consistent though.

My point is, according to your rolling CBarticle, your 1/4 hit and 3/4 hit seem to be the same angle(~25 degrees), and I think the 3/4 hit would be a larger angle than the 1/2 and 1/4 hit.

I think your second article with the soft, medium, and hard hit kind of proves my point. With the hard hit, the initial angle is closer to 45 degrees, and the overall angle thins out when the CB track line bends from the top spin.

This is just my worthless 2 cents. I am not a math guru or anything.

It just seems to me, that when I shoot a rolling CB shot with a 3/4 hit, the angle is close to 45 degrees.
 
okinawa77 said:
Dave,

I am not sure about your rolling CB angle in relation to a 3/4 hit.

I think with rolling CB for a 3/4 hit, the angle is closer to 45 degrees, and becomes a smaller angle with forced follow spin.[...]

Dave is ignoring the initial part --your "closer to 45 degrees" above--and he's talking about what you call "smaller angle" above.
 
Thanks to everybody

Patrick Johnson said:
Thanks, Dave. Your posts are real gems in the desert.
Thanks to everybody for the welcoming tone and positive feedback. I appreciate it, and it helps motivate me to continue to work hard.

Regards,
Dave
 
okinawa77 said:
Dave,

I am not sure about your rolling CB angle in relation to a 3/4 hit.

I think with rolling CB for a 3/4 hit, the angle is closer to 45 degrees, and becomes a smaller angle with forced follow spin.

I guess it all depends on how far from the CB/OB collision you are measuring the angle. I think the farthest distance away from the collision will show different angles, in respect to force follow. Rolling CB should be very consistent though.

My point is, according to your rolling CBarticle, your 1/4 hit and 3/4 hit seem to be the same angle(~25 degrees), and I think the 3/4 hit would be a larger angle than the 1/2 and 1/4 hit.

I think your second article with the soft, medium, and hard hit kind of proves my point. With the hard hit, the initial angle is closer to 45 degrees, and the overall angle thins out when the CB track line bends from the top spin.

This is just my worthless 2 cents. I am not a math guru or anything.

It just seems to me, that when I shoot a rolling CB shot with a 3/4 hit, the angle is close to 45 degrees.
See Diagram 2 in my June '05 article. It shows how to adjust for speed. The angles I reported are for the final CB direction. With faster speed shots, the initial CB direction persists along the tangent line longer before swerving to the final angle. Slow to medium-speed shots swerve very quickly, and the CB heads in the final direction almost immediately after impact (as shown in the diagram). The 30-degree rule applies to the final direction of the CB, after it curves. By offsetting the peace-sign hand along the tangent line, the shift due to speed can be easily visualized and predicted (with some practice).

I hope that addresses all of your points.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Thanks to everybody for the welcoming tone and positive feedback. I appreciate it, and it helps motivate me to continue to work hard.

Regards,
Dave

Even for those of you who would just as soon skip over Dave's equations, I recommend you get his slow-motion DVD -- lots of fun stuff.

And Dave I think you made the right decision coming over to this side. Even though it is a sometimes noisy, sometime raucous, crowded room here, It is..., at least..., a crowded room...

I enjoy and appreciate all your efforts.
 
AZB: "this side"

mikepage said:
Even for those of you who would just as soon skip over Dave's equations, I recommend you get his slow-motion DVD -- lots of fun stuff.

And Dave I think you made the right decision coming over to this side. Even though it is a sometimes noisy, sometime raucous, crowded room here, It is..., at least..., a crowded room...

I enjoy and appreciate all your efforts.
Mike,

Thanks a bunch for your kind posting. I also appreciate all of your efforts, and I look forward to seeing more stuff from you in the future.

I still feel allegiance to the BD CCB (and I still plan to continue to participate there), but there does seem to be a lot more substantive debate and information sharing here. It certainly is a "crowded room."

Regards,
Dave

PS: BTW, the only people I expect to look at "my equations" are the hard-core math and physics enthusiasts out there who also like pool. That's why I try to keep the equations as "hidden" as possible in the TP section of my website (where I post a fair warning to all who might enter).
 
Dave,

I would also like to think you for risking to come to this forum.
You will probably get more ##### over here posting stupid things, but if you look real close, there are some really good people who really apreciate your work and effort.

Having a master degree in engeniring and in architecture, being a physics nersd these are just perfect! I wish i would have had these courses in school !

don't let the bad guys get to you, and i know that some people really apreciate your work !

A fan from belgium
 
physics and "bad guys"

Solartje said:
Dave,

I would also like to think you for risking to come to this forum.
You will probably get more ##### over here posting stupid things, but if you look real close, there are some really good people who really apreciate your work and effort.

Having a master degree in engeniring and in architecture, being a physics nersd these are just perfect! I wish i would have had these courses in school !

don't let the bad guys get to you, and i know that some people really apreciate your work !

A fan from belgium
I'm glad you like my stuff.

I haven't heard from any "bad guys" yet. But don't worry ... they won't scare me off. My skin is quite thick from many years of participation on the BD CCB forum.

Regards,
Dave
 
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