Private pool club - how many members for a 6 table club?

BuffaloSlim

Active member
I understand.

It’s similar to pool. If someone said they want to make a career out of pool I’d probably bet against them too. Usually I’d be right. So if fedor came to AZBilliards in 2012 and asked for advice it wouldn’t have been very supportive. I’m no fedor, but running a pool club is no getting to #1 in the world.

So I appreciate where this is coming from. Yet while we have plans for food and drink, merchandise, pro shop, corporate events, and a few other areas that may generate small revenue streams, we don’t need to go down that road. All I wanted was a few opinions on table/member capacity. I’ve called my shot and am down shooting. Im past the point of discussing pattern options.

Wishing you all a happy holiday. 👍
This sounds like it will he an amazing club ... that I wished I lived near lol ... best of luck on your endeavor and if you could please post some pics when your all set up
 

89erZ Billiards

New member
What size room does it take for 8’ 9’ tables. This is assuming additional space for Bathroom, Streaming Room and other areas needed. What is everyone’s rent per Sq Ft? Do you own or rent the space. How do you calculate the cost of the tables?
 

fuggles

Member
What size room does it take for 8’ 9’ tables. This is assuming additional space for Bathroom, Streaming Room and other areas needed. What is everyone’s rent per Sq Ft? Do you own or rent the space. How do you calculate the cost of the tables?
I did some planning for a new room about 20 years ago. It didn't work out. Anyway the numbers I was using were 270sqft for 9ft table and 230sqft for 7fters. This is just for the tables with no overlapping space (because I don't like it when the table space overlaps with adjacent tables). You could squeeze these numbers down a bit if the playing area overlaps. The other stuff you'd have to add, seating, bar, bath ect. The area I was in was $1/sqft for industrial and $2-3/sqft for the entertainment areas. Which is why my plan quickly fell apart. It was becoming a restaurant/bar business and not a pool business.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I'm opening up a private pool club with six 9' Diamond tables and a 7' Diamond bar table. Not open to the public. 24/7 key access, etc.

How many members do you think this club would support before table availability becomes a concern?

Also, what do you think a reasonable monthly fee would be? I'm in the Minneapolis, MN area. I'll also be running some guided training out of the club (it is going to be designed for people looking to train and improve). Not nightly classes like a dojo, but not just an anytime fitness. I have my plan and ultimately the market will decide, just curious on thoughts of others.
I appreciate the way you are serving members rather than money, it might help to offer tiers of membership, with the leading members able to come to the tables at all hours and others with a more limited membership only on certain days/certain tables.

A great pool club has a good house pro and a special table or two up front with the best cloth and so on. Others have a separate, very private table inside a large space for birthday parties and special events.
 

DDiabolico

DDiabolico

This is a private pool club in our region (city with population of 25.000). It has around 40 members with 6x 9" tables. Variable rates (base membership + hourly payment during daytime operating hours or a full 24h access flatrate). The most expensive membership is € 1000 per year for an adult + child. Cloth gets changed at least once a year and every member is entitled to keep the club clean (I think the guys who run the club do clean on a weekly basis). It's also mandatory to tell when you're at the club (via Whatsapp or FB group) in case anything bad happens during this time.
There's also a small fridge and a few snacks for little $. They also have teams who compete in local leagues and the club is integrated in our national pool association.
 

Timkrieger

Well-known member
Did this pvt club ever get off the ground in MN? I want to do the same thing out here in California, but no matter how I run the numbers, unless you're doing it as a charity, putting your own money in for the love of pool, it just doesn't cover the rent or mortgage, especially out here in California. I enjoyed reading all the advice here though and also the few examples of success like Red Dragon and AZ Snooker. Probably reach out to them to get more advice. Tough to figure out dual usage that would help off-set either rent or mortgage! Opening a pool room scares the hell out of me too b/c I see how lean our local nice pool hall can get at times, probably barely getting by. If I do my club, will likely be set up as a charity and maybe run at a loss for tax purposes. I would have a few commercial tables, 2-4 Diamonds or Gold Crowns in addition to my beautifully restored crown jewels: I have a 10' Brunswick Centennial with 4.5" corners, a 10' Brunswick 6 leg Conqueror with 4.5" corners and ball return, a 9' Brunswick 6 leg Kling with 4.5" corners, a 9' Brunswick Centennial with 4.25" corners and an 8' pro Brunswick Anniversary with 4.25" corners with ball return. And I have a 12' Brunswick 8 leg snooker table as well.
 

benny-the-blade

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did this pvt club ever get off the ground in MN? I want to do the same thing out here in California, but no matter how I run the numbers, unless you're doing it as a charity, putting your own money in for the love of pool, it just doesn't cover the rent or mortgage, especially out here in California. I enjoyed reading all the advice here though and also the few examples of success like Red Dragon and AZ Snooker. Probably reach out to them to get more advice. Tough to figure out dual usage that would help off-set either rent or mortgage! Opening a pool room scares the hell out of me too b/c I see how lean our local nice pool hall can get at times, probably barely getting by. If I do my club, will likely be set up as a charity and maybe run at a loss for tax purposes. I would have a few commercial tables, 2-4 Diamonds or Gold Crowns in addition to my beautifully restored crown jewels: I have a 10' Brunswick Centennial with 4.5" corners, a 10' Brunswick 6 leg Conqueror with 4.5" corners and ball return, a 9' Brunswick 6 leg Kling with 4.5" corners, a 9' Brunswick Centennial with 4.25" corners and an 8' pro Brunswick Anniversary with 4.25" corners with ball return. And I have a 12' Brunswick 8 leg snooker table as well.

The best to you, if you decide to give it a go. What part of California?
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Did this pvt club ever get off the ground in MN? I want to do the same thing out here in California, but no matter how I run the numbers, unless you're doing it as a charity, putting your own money in for the love of pool, it just doesn't cover the rent or mortgage, especially out here in California. I enjoyed reading all the advice here though and also the few examples of success like Red Dragon and AZ Snooker. Probably reach out to them to get more advice. Tough to figure out dual usage that would help off-set either rent or mortgage! Opening a pool room scares the hell out of me too b/c I see how lean our local nice pool hall can get at times, probably barely getting by. If I do my club, will likely be set up as a charity and maybe run at a loss for tax purposes. I would have a few commercial tables, 2-4 Diamonds or Gold Crowns in addition to my beautifully restored crown jewels: I have a 10' Brunswick Centennial with 4.5" corners, a 10' Brunswick 6 leg Conqueror with 4.5" corners and ball return, a 9' Brunswick 6 leg Kling with 4.5" corners, a 9' Brunswick Centennial with 4.25" corners and an 8' pro Brunswick Anniversary with 4.25" corners with ball return. And I have a 12' Brunswick 8 leg snooker table as well.
Just curious how many of your tables you currently have set up to play on and where, and how many you have stored somewhere, not set up?
 

Timkrieger

Well-known member
I have 2 set up currently and the others are stored. I’m looking for space locally to get them all set up. My main practice table is my 10 x 5 Centennial with tight pockets. Here’s a few pics:
 

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NYC

Member
Opening a pool room scares the hell out of me too b/c I see how lean our local nice pool hall can get at times, probably barely getting by. If I do my club, will likely be set up as a charity

Any progress on your idea? Can a private club make it without selling alcohol and food here in 2023?

Great looking Centennial table.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
I think the wildcard here is how much effort you need to put into policing these 50 players. If they are 50 close friends that you have a ton of trust and respect for, that's a lot different from 50 strangers all having 24x7 rights of access.
of those 50 you might have a few that you wished were not in the club, but there are some friends the like them and encourage them to go. maybe defend their actions verbally. . for example you have some drug dependent players that are trying to stay clean, but sometimes fail to stay clean. will you help them by providing a clean atmosphere to help them stay clean? Some may want to drink and drive or maybe have a habit of interfering with others while they are shooting, how about smoking policies. pot smoking? who gets to stop the jerk who drags his cue tip on your new cloth or makes fancy shots and hasn't mastered the skills to prevent damage to the table? what do you do when members bring potential members that may or may not have an admirable level of trust and consideration. You may put yourself in the position of policing them all and making all those complex decisions. Some may be interfering with others in all sorts of ways. In a perfect world the whole system polices itself, In reality these issues , or similar issues may keep you awake at night.
I think if you are there in person to properly and quickly handle any issues while collecting table fees, it's different from getting a call at 2AM because some jerk is on a bender and causing some sort of interpersonal issue. Other than fees, you may want an assigned individual, a person responsible to be available to act as policeman and be present during open hours. 24x 7 means a tall order for that. you can use video surveillance, Maybe you can work that out. This would be may concern , other than the finances, its a huge personal responsibility.
 

Timkrieger

Well-known member
Any progress on your idea? Can a private club make it without selling alcohol and food here in 2023?

Great looking Centennial table.
This is an interesting topic. I've been working a lot on this concept this year. I found numerous potential locations and made several business plans around this model; ultimately it was a stretch at best financially to be able to do this model usually because of the cost of the commercial lease. --In looking at many different locations to lease, I found out from the real estate agent that a former local small pool hall, 7 -9' tables, was actually for lease; it was shuttered and previous tenant evicted. So currently, I'm in the process of due diligence to lease the location. --But, this won't be a members only club. My business that is near and dear to my heart is my BBQ catering business which is thriving financially on catering gigs alone currently. So, my plan is to re-open the former pool hall/beer bar as a BBQ restaurant that serves beer and wine. The BBQ restaurant will also have pool tables, same 7 table layout. I will have the memberships available for pool players, not 24/7 access though. But, with the BBQ and beer sales, any revenue from pool will be extra and it will be able to directly fund maintenance/tournaments, leagues, etc. related to pool. Of course, the tables will also act as magnets to keep customers in the restaurant longer, ordering additional food/beer. But, importantly, this business will not live or die based on table time. Based on many conversations I've had this year and from my own observations, it is deadly to try to live or die on table time alone and carrying the risk alone with a members only club is just too financially risky. It's no small thing to be on the hook for a commercial building lease. I think this is a great solution to the problem of funding/operating a top-tier pool room. You have to be able to generate revenue. Most pool rooms rely on beer, light food to generate revenue, using the tables as magnets to keep people spending money. Table time makes up a small part of the revenue model. But, if you can generate revenue without relying on the pool tables, but still have all the room available for the tables, then it's the best of both worlds. Downside is I'll have to provide hot towels and try to really make sure people don't eat on or around the tables, table time gets paused while people eat, but that's the same to some degree with any food, not just BBQ. I'm waiting on the final green light from the fire inspector before doing the lease so hopefully I'll have an update shortly. The tables I have slated for the pool hall are my 5x10' Centennial, 5x10' Anniversary, 9' Centennial, 8' Anniversary, 2-3 -9' Gold Crowns (Maybe a Diamond Pro Am instead) and my 12' vintage Brunswick Monroe snooker table. The Gold Crowns will be for the public customers and the Centennials will be reserved for members only--These are the type of tables I'd have in a club if I could just have my favorite tables, all tight pockets with rail work to make sure they play the way they are supposed to. Tables that I'm not putting into the pool hall and I'll keep at my house are my restored 5x10' Brunswick Conqueror and my restored six leg Brunswick Kling--wife said she'd kill me if I put them in a public setting.
 
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Timkrieger

Well-known member
I think the wildcard here is how much effort you need to put into policing these 50 players. If they are 50 close friends that you have a ton of trust and respect for, that's a lot different from 50 strangers all having 24x7 rights of access.
of those 50 you might have a few that you wished were not in the club, but there are some friends the like them and encourage them to go. maybe defend their actions verbally. . for example you have some drug dependent players that are trying to stay clean, but sometimes fail to stay clean. will you help them by providing a clean atmosphere to help them stay clean? Some may want to drink and drive or maybe have a habit of interfering with others while they are shooting, how about smoking policies. pot smoking? who gets to stop the jerk who drags his cue tip on your new cloth or makes fancy shots and hasn't mastered the skills to prevent damage to the table? what do you do when members bring potential members that may or may not have an admirable level of trust and consideration. You may put yourself in the position of policing them all and making all those complex decisions. Some may be interfering with others in all sorts of ways. In a perfect world the whole system polices itself, In reality these issues , or similar issues may keep you awake at night.
I think if you are there in person to properly and quickly handle any issues while collecting table fees, it's different from getting a call at 2AM because some jerk is on a bender and causing some sort of interpersonal issue. Other than fees, you may want an assigned individual, a person responsible to be available to act as policeman and be present during open hours. 24x 7 means a tall order for that. you can use video surveillance, Maybe you can work that out. This would be may concern , other than the finances, its a huge personal responsibility.
Yeah, you're exactly right, good points all around. The main issue is commercial space costs money and if you can't generate strong revenue, it will be a struggle. Being on the hook for a commercial lease is a huge risk. Working through this inside and out, I realized that to have space to have tables that I want to have and to offer the experience I'd like to offer to members, I need to generate revenue. I need a business model that generates enough money so that the pool tables are just extra, not needed to generate revenue. So now I'm looking to bring my profitable BBQ business into the model to generate revenue and be able to have the pool room I want with memberships for serious players without the financial strain of "having" to rely on table time or membership fees alone.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
perhaps having some sort of eatery helps potentiial customers come in, they can have lunch and be int he atmosphere, next they will participate if they feel they wish to.
Im not sure what is typical but I suspect the tables may be more full after work, so maybe having a lunchtime crowd of hungry people could balance things up a little.
Here in Canada we have more strict alcohol sales rules and You could apply for a liqueur license to serve alcohol. This requires ID'ing minors. It becomes one or the other, either you serve people under the drinking age or it may be a way to eliminate them. The younger ones might be a bit immature and present different issues but you may also like having them. maybe they buy food at lunch? Serious players may not want kids around, You be the judge, of course.
here obtaining a liquor license is not a super easy thing, Cities need to approve it in council meetings, and nearby residents can protest the application. It may be a lot different there.
 

NYC

Member
This is an interesting topic.

Thanks for the great reply Tim.

Very smart to have another steady stream of revenue from your BBQ business, to help along your pool hall. Since you will be a 6 table operation, your catering business plan might work also. I would be doing some recon work here that will cost you a few bucks and throw some chum into the water about your private pool membership plan. I would aim this recon work at the folks that have the most disposable income available, who usually like to avail themselves of the better things in life. Posting some testing the water adds in higher end sub division newspaper local to you is a good start. Go to the local high dollar private schools and offer up a junior billiard league for Saturday mornings, as kids are always hungry. A wine tasting night for the ladies out there, along with their own league if enough interest is shown.

Since you will be starting with quality equipment and food, these would be great sales points to hammer. Keep the food and the tables, billiard balls in A#1 condition and then charge a premium membership price to join the club. Sure better to attract people that have plenty of disposable income, as you stand a chance of making some money. You still can't blood out of a rock.

I played a lot of pool on the Centennial tables at Mcgirrs pool hall on 8th and 45th in Manhattan. The big money, tournament Centennials had lighting akin to a boxing ring. The tables had the 3 bulb lighting fixtures overhead and installed were 150W bulbs to shine light on the tables. It immersed the table in light and help to lessen background motion for the player at the table. In NYC there was no shortage of sharkin that happened around the tables. I have played on tables with the LED light setups and in my opinion they might be cost effective, but they fall short of the mark. A 3 Halide floodlight bulb setup, with the PAR 30 bulb that is 35 to 40Ws will give a quality lighting system to go with your top tier tables. On and off switches still work, along with Blue tooth systems of today.

Best of luck in your endeavor and you don't need everyone, just the right 1s.
 
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snookered_again

Well-known member
LED's save power but they also make photographs come out terrible. I assume with video , it's the same thing. Other forms of lighting produce pictures that have terrible color rendition. When the color temperature of the light source is changes , so are the colors you see reflected off objects in the room.

If you want examples, just try taking digital pics with different lighting conditions.

1000 Degrees Kelvin is a standard, that is used for commercial applications where comparing true colors is important. Around home I'd go with the sunlight bulbs, a bit more yellow light feels more cozy.

In a workshop I'd put the whiter ones. It's easier to see what you are doing.

I chose the more yellow ones for my table at home.
I don't want harsh light there.
 

NYC

Member
LED's save power but they also make photographs come out terrible.

Most people don't realize and take for granted just how perceptive Human eyesight is. Most LED light emitters luminance and chromaticity are severely lacking and the film picture tells the story. Halogen lighting comes the closest to producing Sunlight. Objects like billiard balls under halogen lighting appear sharper to the Human eye then when compared to LED lighting. Allowing the eye to focus on these objects more efficiently. Halogen lighting does cost more to buy and operate, but offers a better playing environment for those involved.
 
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snookered_again

Well-known member
the lost power is never lost during the heating season, The losses are heat energy and the result is that the heating system runs less.
If you are running AC then the AC operates and does the opposite so the two are fighting against each other and this does waste energy.

There are many published reports that will give statistics on energy consumption but they seldom take this very obvious factor into account in the calculations which are often designed to sell the product.

I worked in the printing industry where color rendition is very important, errors can lead to tons of printed material not being accepted by the buyer, the packaging industry is sensitive for this , they want their products to appear the same , not different as they may look like old products or not represent their corporate color choices well. Kodak yellow is always the same, they dont want variation for example, although kodak is gone for the most part,, You know the yellow to expect ,from memory.

in printing color contracts are signed under standard lighting, these are called contract proofs, the buyer signs off on the color sample and the printer has to keep within certain limits otherwise the job can be rejected at the printer's cost, this is a contract and has a legal aspect involving money so the lighting booth , usually located by the press, is standardized.

in rinting a densitometer is what's used to track differences in color, it reads color spot samples and gives a numeric figure thsi is how a pressman keeps as close as possible to his signed contract proof which is often right there as a comparison on his register table. This is a station where he constantly pulls sheets to check various things including color density. part of his job is to maintain consistency so the printed job is maintaned within specified and measurable tolerances.

the standard is not sunlight but 1000 degrees kelvin which is basically what you get if you have northern light to your back.. this is whiter than sunlight.

sunlight varies, there is more red in the spectrum in evenings and in fall. this also helps trigger plants to flower as well as hours of light. Halide lights are extremely bright and hot, they are often used in places like jewelry stores because they want you to be influenced by sparkle when looking at things like diamonds but not for things like color comparison. its often used for sales.

one thing I dislike about the halides is that if you are to sit near the table, waiting etc and you get the harsh light straight in your eye then it can be quite blinding. If you've ever been flashed by an electric welder then you'll have that as a comparison to how exposure to very bright light can blind you somewhat, at least temporarily. maybe its ok if the fixtures are designed with diffusers or low enough not to get hit straight in the eye.

all this can affect you when you look at the ball as you then see a reflection of the lights above. I was curious how that affected a players decision or if they tried to ignore the image of the light reflected from the balls. The response I got was to try to ignore that and look at the ball, it's not really a reliable way to make any judgement. I wondered if others agree with that.

the lights you choose are of course your decision and some may prefer whiter light or a more yellow shade, like sunlight.
the color of balls and clothing and such will appear different under different lighting conditions but pool players are mainly trying to focus on the position of balls, not their colors.

I have a 3 light fixture over my 10 foot table, it should be 4 so I had to hang it a bit higher. if I sit near the table its in my eyes, fine when playing. I dont really want to spend on new lights but had the idea I might like a nice wood and mica fixture which I could create to fit the surrounding decor which is craftsman style.
I'm not trying to sway anyone else's opinion ( why would I care? ) I am interested in what others like best.

the more pin point our lights are, the harsher shadows will be. I think we will all agree the shadows are of no use to the player,if anythign, an annoyance. the more diffused the lights are, the less the shadows will confuse things.

the pool lights are also part of the decor so some may like certain ones as they fit the theme better. I feel I do not want my living room to look like a drug store with harsh light. I'd prefer a more relaxed atmosphere. the color of light and intensity do affect a buyers decisions. They can also have an effect on moods. when you shop you will often notice bright halides used for this reason. a fast food restaurant may use this to try to get the customer not to stay long , because they want the table to turn over, a relaxed pizza parlor or a pool hall may want more relaxed lighting so that the customer will sit and have a couple of beer and maybe spend a little more. bars and restaraunts usually use subdued lighting in a restaraunt they may choose the lighting that makes food more appealing, the wrong light makes what is on the plate less appealing. haide may be one that restaraunts prefer, maybe it makes the broccoli look more appetizing for example.
 
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