But for a given distance between the CB and OB, Stan's CTE, if robotically performed, can place the cue stick, after the pivot, on only 12 lines (i.e. 12 cut angles) -- 6 that would cut the OB to the left and 6 that would cut it to the right. The desired pocket might not be on any of those 12 lines/angles.
PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions
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But for a given distance between the CB and OB, Stan's CTE, if robotically performed, can place the cue stick, after the pivot, on only 12 lines (i.e. 12 cut angles) -- 6 that would cut the OB to the left and 6 that would cut it to the right. The desired pocket might not be on any of those 12 lines/angles.
That's true, but the 12 lines change where they will hit the OB anytime you change the position of the CB, thus making them much more variable than you are suggesting. Because the table has a 2 to 1 ration (8x4, 9x4.5 etc) using the aim points that basically start you at half ball, quarter ball, and 1/8th ball and pivot allow these points to fall into a correct ghost ball position given a certain combination of shot angle and CB distance from OB. Really, there are only 6 lines for each shot, as 6 can bae ruled out by the direction of angle of the shot.
What's the difference?
This is Hal Houle's years-old numerological nonsense regurgitated. The table's 2:1 size ratio has nothing to do with aiming.
pj
chgo
Sherlock Holmes of Pool.
Patrick,
When you get the video, I expect for you to articulate why some people are having incredible success with CTE/Pro One.
You may be one of the only ones who is capable of discovering this mystery.
Unlike some people, I believe that you will actually put in time to not only learn how to become proficient at using it but will find out why CTE/Pro One reportedly works for so many people despite your proclivities toward bashing some of the things you find contradictory.
Good luck, SH. :wink:
JoeyA (looking forward to Patrick's findings, warts and all)
Patrick,
When you get the video, I expect for you to articulate why some people are having incredible success with CTE/Pro One.
You may be one of the only ones who is capable of discovering this mystery.
Unlike some people, I believe that you will actually put in time to not only learn how to become proficient at using it but will find out why CTE/Pro One reportedly works for so many people despite your proclivities toward bashing some of the things you find contradictory.
Good luck, SH. :wink:
JoeyA (looking forward to Patrick's findings, warts and all)
I've done that many times already. I'll do it again after seeing the DVD (which I just received today).
I don't think there's much mystery to it. I think there's just a lot of CTE users who don't understand how it works for them, even though it's been explained many times already.
You're probably wrong about me putting in the time to become proficient at using CTE. If the DVD doesn't convince me that CTE is something more than another "ballpark" system with a "pivot" gimmick thrown in to paper over the "by feel" part, then I won't put any time into practicing it. I already aim pretty well with my own visual/feel method and don't want to retool it needlessly.
But I will review the DVD with my eyes (and mind) open to whatever methods the system uses that might be generally useful/beneficial. As I've said many times, I believe there are objectively positive aspects of it - in particular the fact that it draws the shooter's attention to precise alignment of stick/CB/OB (which is something that's already central to my own aiming method, and that I've mentioned several times over the years separately from CTE discussions). If there are any good techniques that I don't yet use, I will incorporate them and report about that too.
pj
chgo
The difference of the two angles is very significant. The angle going CB center to OB center to pocket will remain the same if I move the CB closer or further away from the OB, thus giving incomplete input into the sight lines and pivot needed. The angle needed to make the shot will change anytime the CB is moved closer or further from the OB, helping to decide when each sight line or pivot is needed. This is of course inconsequential if you do not believe the system to be one of mathematical significance.
I am somewhat interested to hear your thoughts on the DVD, although I really don't think it will offer the type of objective input you are looking for, and will likely turn you off.
Whether you spend much time with it is unimportant as long as you are capable of playing up to your speed with it.
I already know it works well and so do many people.
After viewing the video, I was hoping that you would be able to use it with a high degree of consistency like many of us.
If you are unable or unwilling to play well while using CTE/Pro One your analysis won't be interesting, at least to me. No problem either way.
JoeyA
For whatever it is worth.....your post above hits on something I have recently discovered (while playing around with various alignment methods) and jumped my ball pocketing in a huge way.
What I found is that there seems to be a constant "baseline" in the relationship between CB - OB - Pocket
Everyone works on a base of looking OB to pocket and then aligning CB to OB in some method....
Nobody ever seems to acknowledge the relationship of CB to Pocket....The CB to Pocket line is the baseline of all angles of any shot........as the OB moves around the table the "triangle" changes...and the relationship of CB to OB and OB to Pocket changes...but the "baseline" of the triangle always remains the same...CB to Pocket...(or CB to Target) might be a better term.
As the OB moves along a straight line away from the pocket and closer to the CB...the "triangle angle" changes from very shallow to very steep.
I could not begin to tell you "mathematically" what all this means.......but I have found that starting from the "Baseline" of CB to Pocket (Target) and then pivoting to whatever the part of the line of the triangle is called that runs from CB to OB....has made it almost stupid easy to align and pocket a ball.
Could the "baseline" of CB to Pocket (Target) be the foundation of a mathematical formula??
OMG! This is incredible! Do you realize what you have just done?! Starting from the baseline (CB to pocket), it's really easy to get to the correct aiming line, right? You know why that is? This is the secret to aiming. I'm serious. Because, do you know what the baseline tells you about where to hit the object ball to make it and thus how to align yourself with the shot? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
And THAT is the crux of the matter: Distract your brain with some crap so your subconscious can do the real work. Congratulations! You are now aiming by feel.
I prefer "naysayer" or "detractor".
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Way to go genius...tell me something I already know.....Everyone ends up aiming by feel.....but everyone also uses some kind of method to gain feel.
I am glad CB to pocket means nothing to you....feel free to ignore it all you want...:thumbup:
It wasn't negative. I really meant what I said.
If you can aim with CTE or any other mystical system, you already do know where to hit the balls. But you don't trust yourself and feel the need for a system like CTE. It may even be able to finally quiet your conscious mind and let you actually memorize all the different shots and potting angles. Which means your game might improve "because of CTE". The sad thing about this is: You don't need CTE, because as I said, you already KNOW how to aim. The system itself doesn't do anything. This may take a very long time for some people to realize - of course nob ody can convince you here and now. If you were to accept that CTE is just a distraction, that specific distraction wouldn't work for you anymore, leaving your mind alone at the pool table.
So how can you let your subconscious mind take over the aiming process, like ... on purpose? Without a system?
Here is an idea:
Please note that this is only an example to make a point and that the diagram is most probably not accurate!
Say you are playing 8-Ball and the 1-Ball is your last solid before the 8-Ball. The 8 is tied up and you look if you can draw the cueball directly into the 8. If the angle on the 1-Ball is too big, the cueball will miss the 8 on the left side. But somehow you just KNOW that it will hit the 8. Not only that. You might even see that the cueball will hit the 8 roughly half-ball on the left side, sending the cueball into the long rail and out, or something like that. Now how do you know that? There is no system in the world with which your brain could consciously calculate the curved path that the cueball is going to take. And yet you can see it. On some days the image is really crisp, on a different day it isn't. If your mechanics suck, it might be blurry. But it's always there. And it's always a learning process.
Aiming, at least for me, is based on the same principle. The difference is, that compared to figuring out the cueball draw path, aiming is a piece of cake.
but yet here you are!!!!
Ken,
How are you starting at the baseline and where are you pivoting to?
I'm just a Cte user, so you'd better spell it out for me. I doubt I'll be able to understand, anyway.
Best,
Mike
I think it was the way you said it that drew his response. It's kind of funny that pocketpoint joked about the troll thing, and that you both think its funny. Some people just don't get how to behave socially. The guy tries to offer something that has helped his game (kind of the point of the forum), and gets talked to like he's an idiot for his efforts. I'm not really all that sensitive about what you say concerning my posts, I just don't like to see people treat others asif they are better than them. You may not have meant it that way, but I thought it came across that way. Others can correct me if I am wrong. I really don't mean to berate you, I am just not sure that you realize how your post came across.
You left a "tell" in your last post.
It appears that you are shedding some light upon your playing level with the shot you described above.
I seldom admonish anyone for their level of skill but I notice that you like to come off as an expert about CTE/Pro One and aiming in general.
You are of course wrong about this very basic shot that I highlighted in blue ink. It is taught by Joe V in one of his videos. Joe specifically tells you how to slide the cue ball into the eight. Even Dr. Dave has this shot in his VEPS series and yes, even Dr. Dave tells you exactly how to play it and while Dr. Dave isn't a top player, even he knows how to make this shot CONSISTENTLY by drawing the cue ball into the eight. It is really an elementary shot including breaking up the eight ball.
I'm still learning so we can all continue to learn. There's nothing wrong with not knowing something but acting like you know something when you don't; well there's a problem...........
If you don't know how to play this shot consistently, you should give up pontificating about these things. It doesn't look good on your resume. (It makes your statements about CTE/Pro One look, completely invalid).
just sayin,
JoeyA
It appears that you are shedding some light upon your playing level with the shot you described above.
I seldom admonish anyone for their level of skill but I notice that you like to come off as an expert about CTE/Pro One and aiming in general.
You are of course wrong about this very basic shot that I highlighted in blue ink. It is taught by Joe V in one of his videos. Joe specifically tells you how to slide the cue ball into the eight. Even Dr. Dave has this shot in his VEPS series and yes, even Dr. Dave tells you exactly how to play it and while Dr. Dave isn't a top player, even he knows how to make this shot CONSISTENTLY by drawing the cue ball into the eight. It is really an elementary shot including breaking up the eight ball.
I'm still learning so we can all continue to learn. There's nothing wrong with not knowing something but acting like you know something when you don't; well there's a problem...........
If you don't know how to play this shot consistently, you should give up pontificating about these things. It doesn't look good on your resume. (It makes your statements about CTE/Pro One look, completely invalid).
just sayin,
JoeyA
Basic 1/8 ball overlap
I'm trying to constantly get to the same position for the Basic 1 /8 ball overlap. I've watched the video numerous times and I'm not getting that position. If your doing a shot where you going CTE edge to a & b for left cuts or c & b for right cuts. You have the Ctel for the cue poistion whether it's a right or left pivot. With the 1/8 ball overlap, it's not clear to me where the staring point of the cue is. It dosen't matter if it's a left or right cut. I understand the sighting visual of it, but has anybody come up with a way to position your cue before the pivot to center. I do fairly well with the Pro 1 1/8 ball, but I'm looking for a spot to do the same postilion all the time with Basic.
I'm trying to constantly get to the same position for the Basic 1 /8 ball overlap. I've watched the video numerous times and I'm not getting that position. If your doing a shot where you going CTE edge to a & b for left cuts or c & b for right cuts. You have the Ctel for the cue poistion whether it's a right or left pivot. With the 1/8 ball overlap, it's not clear to me where the staring point of the cue is. It dosen't matter if it's a left or right cut. I understand the sighting visual of it, but has anybody come up with a way to position your cue before the pivot to center. I do fairly well with the Pro 1 1/8 ball, but I'm looking for a spot to do the same postilion all the time with Basic.
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Ken,
How are you starting at the baseline and where are you pivoting to?
I'm just a Cte user, so you'd better spell it out for me. I doubt I'll be able to understand, anyway.
Best,
Mike
Note: this is not really a CTE method....This is more of a "line to line" method...and I am a firm beliver that "every" alignment method ends with feel.
Normally...people look OB to Pocket and find the contact point on the OB...Then they move over behind the CB and (try) to align themselves to that contact point......The CB to Pocket line gets completely ignored.
What I have started doing (with great success so far) is to start by standing in a direct line of CB to pocket...This puts me behind the CB at the very start...This CB to Pocket line is what I call the "Baseline"...When I have this line, I am able to also see a complete triangle of CB to pocket, CB to OB, OB to Pocket.
As I am standing on the CB to Pocket Line...All I do is shift from that line to the CB to OB line...(AKA cut line)....Quite often I will actually point my cue down the CB to Pocket line and then pivot it left or right so it is down the CB to OB line...I take my stance (based on that line) drop into the shot and shoot the ball.
The rest of it is just letting myself shoot the OB Down the OB to Pocket Line.
For me...It just seems like the CB to Pocket line is that "baseline" of the whole visualization of the shot....and is now where I start from on virtually every shot.
Even shots that seem straight in....quite often have just a little left or right cut to them...by starting CB to Pocket...I see the slight angle right away....or if I want to cheat a pocket just a hair....start CB to target and pivot the cue from the baseline to the cut line.
This is not a true CTE pivot method, but it is a form of pivot method that has worked wonders for me personally....
The best part is that it takes zero brainpower to use.