Pro players and regional tours

F

facets58

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the IPT gave money out at their qualifiers, should Efren be allowed to play in them. NO! That would be pointless. He is already an IPT player, no need to qualify.

I think it is important that you realize why the a WPBA regional tour is in place. The sole purpose is to bring players along and to get to them to the pro level. When a pro player plays in these tournaments, it disrupts the fields and a players chance to earn the qualifying spot or points for their year end ranking...it is very unfortunate. It is hard enough for a player to navigate through the regional tours.

I understand a pro player needs to earn money and some players play on the regional tours because the WPBA hasn't placed a restriction on it. This is purely a selfish decision on the pro players, they don't belong in these tournaments (this is not there arena anymore)...they already have a guaranteed entry into ALL of the WPBA events...what's the point, MONEY. We all know that most pool players can't make a living, but as long as the regional tours have qualifiers and give points for their year end ranking, it is just not right that pros play.

There are two things a regional tour can give it's players...
1. Qualifiers
2. The top player at the end of the year gets into all the WPBA Classic stops for the following year.

This is really quite simple, the WPBA Touring Pro and Active Pro can't use either of these things THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

This would be like Tiger Woods playing in a Match Play event that was a qualifier... what would the point be. This is unfair to the players, and unfortunate that the pros don't earn enough and have to stoop to this level.

Now on the other hand, if a player doesn't have their Touring Pro or Active Pro status then they should be allowed to play, it is their right.

Sorry if i offended anyone, but as you can tell I have strong feelings about this one. I will leave State Championships alone at this time lol.

facets--
 
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facets58 said:
I think it is important that you realize why the a WPBA regional tour is in place. The sole purpose is to bring players along and to get to them to the pro level....
Click to expand...

Facets, very interesting post and one which gives food for thought, indeed. :)

I read recently on AzBillards Main Page this article about the "Spirit Tour" win by Monica Webb: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3591

I'm not familiar with the WPBA qualifiers, and I know there are other posters on this forum who are and may shed some light on the topic and your concern.

I do know that some "regional tours" are "sanctioned" by the WPBA, and as a result, those who are not already "pros" will win a spot at an upcoming WPBA pro event.

There are regional tours in my area which provide an opportunity to players of all caliber to compete. If they are "sanctioned" for a particular event by the WPBA, as an example, the qualifiers goes to the player who isn't already a WPBA pro. In the above-referenced example, Xiao-Ting Pan came in third place and won the WPBA qualifier. So, even though there were WPBA pros competing, the qualifier did go to the highest finisher who was a non-WPBA pro.

Personally, I think it slightly -- and I use the word "slightly" hesitantly -- unfair that there are no men-only regional tours. Women, pro or non-pro, are welcome to compete in many regional tours, i.e., Joss, Tiger/Planet-Pool, Blaze. However, the men, pro or non-pro, cannot compete in the women-only regional tour. So, in essence, the women are afforded more opportunities to compete than are the men, pro and non-pro, on the REGIONAL tournament trail.:p

JAM
 
Facets-
Don't they get this anyway?
"There are two things a regional tour can give it's players...
1. Qualifiers
2. The top player at the end of the year gets into all the WPBA Classic stops for the following year."
Even if the WPBA player is in the event her position at the end of the event of not included, so it trickels on to the next highest player in the event who is not already qualified.
So you still get the points, and the spot don't you?
 
Hi JAM.

The WPBA site currently lists 11 regional tours that are scantioned.

http://www.wpba.com/cms/?pid=1000182

Xiao-Ting Pan is in an interesting position. She got her WPBA pro status at the last event in Vegas, but in order for her to have an automatic entry into the WPBA as a Touring Pro she would need to have 80% participation over the last 10 events. She has only played in the last 4, but all four events were pro points and thus she earned her WPBA pro status. Keep in mind a Pro doesn't mean automatic entry... only Touring Pro does.

Touring Pro = Pro player with 80% of the last 10 events (automatic entry
into ALL WPBA Classic Tour events)
Active Pro = Pro player with 50% of last 10 events (the advantage that
the Active Pro player gets...they will get invited before Pros and
Semi-pros by ranking).
Pros = All players who have gotten 4 pro points in the last 10 tournaments.
(Pro players are invited by ranking only, not guaranteed entry)


So as you can see the line is pretty clear when you understand it... Touring Pro players are the only ones who are secure in getting into the pro events. ALL Touring Pro's are invited to ALL of the WPBA events.

This to me would be the hard line as to who can play in qualifiers and who can not. Even though the Active Pro will almost always get into the events, there is no guaranteed entry. For this reason I feel that they should be allowed to play in qualifiers, that is, until the WPBA changes the way they invite players.

facets--
 
facets58 said:
Touring Pro = Pro player with 80% of the last 10 events (automatic entry
into ALL WPBA Classic Tour events)
Active Pro = Pro player with 50% of last 10 events (the advantage that
the Active Pro player gets...they will get invited before Pros and
Semi-pros by ranking).
Pros = All players who have gotten 4 pro points in the last 10 tournaments.
(Pro players are invited by ranking only, not guaranteed entry)
Click to expand...

Geezy peezy, that's a lot of bureaucracy. I did not know there were several classifications of a pro in the WPBA. I definitely see your point.:o

JAM
 
JAM said:
Facets, very interesting post and one which gives food for thought, indeed. :)

I read recently on AzBillards Main Page this article about the "Spirit Tour" win by Monica Webb: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.cfm?storynum=3591

I'm not familiar with the WPBA qualifiers, and I know there are other posters on this forum who are and may shed some light on the topic and your concern.

I do know that some "regional tours" are "sanctioned" by the WPBA, and as a result, those who are not already "pros" will win a spot at an upcoming WPBA pro event.

There are regional tours in my area which provide an opportunity to players of all caliber to compete. If they are "sanctioned" for a particular event by the WPBA, as an example, the qualifiers goes to the player who isn't already a WPBA pro. In the above-referenced example, Xiao-Ting Pan came in third place and won the WPBA qualifier. So, even though there were WPBA pros competing, the qualifier did go to the highest finisher who was a non-WPBA pro.

Personally, I think it slightly -- and I use the word "slightly" hesitantly -- unfair that there are no men-only regional tours. Women, pro or non-pro, are welcome to compete in many regional tours, i.e., Joss, Tiger/Planet-Pool, Blaze. However, the men, pro or non-pro, cannot compete in the women-only regional tour. So, in essence, the women are afforded more opportunities to compete than are the men, pro and non-pro, on the REGIONAL tournament trail.:p

JAM
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And the wheel chair players, seniors, amteurs B, C and D players have so many more opportunities too. How can we put an end to this?
 
PROG8R-

Yes it is true that the qualifier and points for each event will still be given out. The problem is this: Let's say that the race is very close at the end of the year and one player draws a WPBA Pro on the one loss side of the tournament and that loss costs her the year end points title and all of the WPBA spots for the following year.

Well it really doesn't matter if it is the last tournament of the year and if the points are close or not...you get my point. Many regional tour players pay a lot of money to travel to these events... there are only a few players that win any money at all. Pool can be expensive...at the regional tour level it is already very competitive and can be very frustrating if you are up against a player that really doesn't belong in that arena that ends up sending you home.

If #1 and #2 in a regional tour match up it is an exciting match. If #1 gets beat by 2 WPBA Pros and falls to #3 or #4 in the rankings, that is truely unfortunate.

Yes the prizes are given out, but should they have gone to a different player... who knows... that's why the structure should be set up so Touring Pros can't play.

facets--
 
This is a classic argument along the lines of which came first, the chicken or the egg.

I believe that facets is arguing the point as to why Touring Pros should be allowed to play in Regional Tour events when they already have a spot into the WPBA events. And even though the WPBA office is figuring out a sure-fire way to fill the WPBA events, the Touring Pros will always be invited before the Active Pros, Pros, and Semi-Pros.

The argument is basically this: A Touring Pro (or plural) playing in a Qualifying event can knock out a player trying to win the Qualifier. Is this fair? It depends upon who you ask. You want to win the Qualifier so you can get to the event where you're going to play the same Pros you're playing against now in a Regional Tour.

In my tour, it is up to the Room Owner, or whomever is putting up the monies, as to whether they want to open the field to the WPBA Touring Pros, with the exception of my State Championships which are always open.

When Candi Rego ran the tour she opened up ALL the events to the TPs and as a result, Karen Corr was POY for a few years even after she made TP status. At first, I didn't care for it, but then I came to the realization that I can play them NOW instead of hoping to win a Q to play them LATER. And this turned out to be a fun thing for me because for only $50 and maybe a couple hundred in hotel and gas expenses, I could play a TP for what some Q winners and others that spend about $1000 to do!

Facets, I do see your point to this question and I intend on doing a survey with the membership to get their opinions. Should prove interesting.

Barbara
 
facets58 said:
If #1 and #2 in a regional tour match up it is an exciting match. If #1 gets beat by 2 WPBA Pros and falls to #3 or #4 in the rankings, that is truely unfortunate.

facets--
Click to expand...

Okay, I see your point with this, too. But! If the tour was consistent for the year in allowing the TPs to play in any event, then you have to expect this may happen. It's always the luck of the draw.

Barbara
 
JAM

Yeah, it does get kind of confusing...lol

You said in your post "the women are afforded more opportunities to compete than are the men."

I agree with you, they may have more regional events that offer qualifiers into the pro events.

There is also a reason for this...The men don't have a "Tour."

I look at it this way, lets say i wanted to hold a qualifier for a Men's Pro event. I would call the event organizer and ask if i could put on a event and have the players compete for a qualifying spot for their event. As long as I met the conditions set forth, I have a feeling that a qualifyier would be held.

The only difference is that the women have organized a Pro Tour and a system that feeds into the Pro Tour.

The men could do this anytime they like...they just don't.

I wish they would, it would only create more excitement for there events.

facets--
 
facets58 said:
JAM

Yeah, it does get kind of confusing...lol

You said in your post "the women are afforded more opportunities to compete than are the men."

I agree with you, they may have more regional events that offer qualifiers into the pro events.

There is also a reason for this...The men don't have a "Tour."

I look at it this way, lets say i wanted to hold a qualifier for a Men's Pro event. I would call the event organizer and ask if i could put on a event and have the players compete for a qualifying spot for their event. As long as I met the conditions set forth, I have a feeling that a qualifyier would be held.

The only difference is that the women have organized a Pro Tour and a system that feeds into the Pro Tour.

The men could do this anytime they like...they just don't.

I wish they would, it would only create more excitement for there events.

facets--
Click to expand...

We do have satelite qualifiers for some events. Last year they were listed on the USOPEN website. Better than taking the $500. out of your own pocket. There are a few invite only events, but most are open to any, just more expensive to get in. Like the IPT for example..You don't actually have to worry about being knocked out of a qualifier by Efren, because he wont be at any of them. But I can see where it might burn me a bit if he was the one that took me out.
 
Nostroke said:
And the wheel chair players, seniors, amteurs B, C and D players have so many more opportunities too. How can we put an end to this?
Click to expand...

LOL. Touché! :D

It seems like there's a pool happening every single week of the year. Personally, I think it is GREAT that players can pick and choose which event to attend. In the Northeast region, as an example, we are very fortunate to have the regional tours which are in existence and still going strong. :)

We have missed the DCC, a favorite event in my camp, for 2 years in a row. The variety of events -- tournaments, ring games, ACTION -- is attractive, and one of the DCC's best features is that these events, with the exception of the ring games, are open to players of all caliber.

There is a sharp divide between players who compete professionally and those who do so for recreation. For the aspiring lady pros, those who are intent on competing in the WPBA, it is a difficult tournament trail to follow due to expenses and available opportunities. On a good note, though, it is great to see the high payouts of WPBA event AND the media coverage. The WPBA has made great strides, IMHO!

JAM
 
regional tours and pro players

Terrific posts. I was trying to get this kind of dialogue with me post about the ladies spirit tour.
 
Barbara,

This may be a "I agree to disagree," but that's what makes the world go around :) We have both run tours and have different ideas. This is not personal, just an idea in motion.

I still feel that a qualifier is for one thing and one thing only, to qualify a player into the pro event. It only makes sense that players already invited into the pro event would be exempt in playing in the qualifyier.

Show me another sport that allows this!!!

The regional tours are for grooming players for the next level... The Pros.

The regional tours are not for feeding the pros and giving them more events to play.

A player who thinks that it is a great opportunity to get to play a Karen Corr or another top Pro player for a $50 entry fee might rethink their position when the newness has worn off, and they are really competing for the top prize or player of the year honors.

I'm not going to address the room owner because I don't feel the room owner has anything to do with the issue at hand. It is strictly a WPBA / regional tour issue.

facets--
 
JAM said:
There is a sharp divide between players who compete professionally and those who do so for recreation. For the aspiring lady pros, those who are intent on competing in the WPBA, it is a difficult tournament trail to follow due to expenses and available opportunities. On a good note, though, it is great to see the high payouts of WPBA event AND the media coverage. The WPBA has made great strides, IMHO!

JAM
Click to expand...

I think the other side of the coin is that everyone has the same life choices, which choice is more "right" for you? I'm not saying any one choice is better than the other, just playing devil's advo.


Eric
 
facets58 said:
A player who thinks that it is a great opportunity to get to play a Karen Corr or another top Pro player for a $50 entry fee might rethink their position when the newness has worn off, and they are really competing for the top prize or player of the year honors.

facets--
Click to expand...

Yep Mike, the Semi-Pro POY/invited spots thing is now bringing the TP issue into the spotlight.

So every tour is doing things differently. Some don't allow the top 16, some the top 32, and some, no TPs at all. How do you decide this? I only want to be fair to my membership, so should I let them decide? But let's say an RO wants to see someone like Karen or Julie or Dawn come into their room and is willing to put up over $1000 to make this happen so he can get some locals to come out to watch (and spend their money in his room watching) and a little publicity in the pool community, don't they have a say in this, too?

Barbara
 
Why not stagger entry fees according to the status of the entrant? Perhaps raise the entry fee so that it is higher for the professionals? I believe the WPBA yearly dues are staggered the same way, with Touring Professionals paying higher dues than Active or Semi-Pros.
 
Earl Grey said:
Why not stagger entry fees according to the status of the entrant? Perhaps raise the entry fee so that it is higher for the professionals? I believe the WPBA yearly dues are staggered the same way, with Touring Professionals paying higher dues than Active or Semi-Pros.
Click to expand...

This has been suggested to me by Dawn Hopkins and I am considering it for next year.

EDIT:

And to take that further, I would consider allowing a league player to pay $30 for a full year of competition for her entry fee, then if she comes back and renews her tour card, she must pay the full $50 entry fee. I would think about making Pros and above pay $75.

Barbara
 
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Barbara,

As far as not allowing the top 15, 16 32 etc... that is only a number. Setting it so that the top 32 can't play in qualifiers doesn't make sense...what if there are 37 touring pros. The true dividing line is if the WPBA is giving a player an automatic invite. The only group of players that get an automatic invite are the Touring Pros.

The RO has their own agenda, making money...you're agenda is running a WPBA regional tour. In order to do so the RO can't be allowed to change the format of your event or the players will be hurt. The players are you're responsiability and if you say that Touring Pros can't play in your events then the RO must respect that.

You can do a Sunday event like a Round Robin with some top NEWT players and a few of the Pros, and it doesn't affect the qualifying spot. I'm no longer running my tour, but I still have ideas...lol

There is always a way of making everyone happy...it's just a game;)

facets--
 
Make the pro's pay like $200.
See if they still come out to steal.:D

THAT way, your not stopping them from playing (which they shouldn't be doing) but at least, it is costing them a lung, and they might think twice before taking the trip to steal the money away. (State Champs excluded, but then again, State Champs shouldn't include a spot) JMO

This topic has been discussed enough.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=31695

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...Number=161558&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...Number=160832&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
 
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