problems with weekly 9ball tournaments

StormHotRod300

StormHotRod300

BigSexy
Silver Member
OK, last yr in april i started up shooting pool, on a regular basis, and started playing in some Free tournaments which the pool hall i frequent was holding for beginner players and the ones who are not good enough to hang with the big boys.

As a beginner these are great for pool players who are either just beginning to play or play everynow n then. Plus its FREE, and there is $ for first place 1$ per entry , max 32people. second and third place each get 1hr free pool, double elimination/ race to 4 / loser breaks.

Now over the months, i have become better than most of the players who have been doing this for alot longer than me. And there is a wide variety of talent in the tournaments. Some of the people are APA players anywhere from a 2-5. Also the owner of this place began running a thursday nite C/D race to 4/3 9ball tournament cost 4$, double elimination.

Alot of the better players from the free tournaments are playing in the C/D tourny too. Which is nice because its a smaller group of players but the talent level is better.

Now I myself in the few months since i started back up playing, have won 1 of the free tournaments and 1 of the C/D tournaments. Which i suprised myself because most of the players have been playing for alot longer than me, even though i have played pool off and on my whole life.

I have also gotten into a couple of the friday nite 13$ 9ball tournaments which cuts off players rated AA or better.

Now as you are wondering where this is leading, of course i always am looking to better myself in pool, and have found you only get better if you play against better talent. But the # of people who get into the Friday nite tournaments ranges from 5 to at the most i seen about 16.

I also ask some of the better players who have been kicked out of the free tournaments why they dont show up on friday nites, and thier excuses are, in a range from they arnt good enough to i dont want to play those guys to they dont want to spend the 13$ to get thier butts kicked.

So these same players go across town to another pool hall that has a tuesday nite Free tournament that basically allows anyone in. And i begin to wonder is it just the Cheap azz town i live in that creates this? Or is this the same everywhere?

I have talked to a fellow girl/pool player whos dad owns Billiards Cafe in Battle Creek, Mi and she tells me thier weekly 9ball and 8ball tournaments are packed. they run a couple weekly D/E 15$ 9ball tournaments that is packed, and they also run a doubles 8ball tournament on the weekends where the Prize fund is huge.

Now i love to find better competition but unless i am forced, i dont really want to drive 2hrs just to find better competition.

I would love to hear from everyone on this! And what they see in thier Area.

And i live in Holland, Michigan just so everyone knows
 
StormHotRod300 said:
OK, last yr in april i started up shooting pool, on a regular basis, and started playing in some Free tournaments which the pool hall i frequent was holding for beginner players and the ones who are not good enough to hang with the big boys.

As a beginner these are great for pool players who are either just beginning to play or play everynow n then. Plus its FREE, and there is $ for first place 1$ per entry , max 32people. second and third place each get 1hr free pool, double elimination/ race to 4 / loser breaks.

Now over the months, i have become better than most of the players who have been doing this for alot longer than me. And there is a wide variety of talent in the tournaments. Some of the people are APA players anywhere from a 2-5. Also the owner of this place began running a thursday nite C/D race to 4/3 9ball tournament cost 4$, double elimination.

Alot of the better players from the free tournaments are playing in the C/D tourny too. Which is nice because its a smaller group of players but the talent level is better.

Now I myself in the few months since i started back up playing, have won 1 of the free tournaments and 1 of the C/D tournaments. Which i suprised myself because most of the players have been playing for alot longer than me, even though i have played pool off and on my whole life.

I have also gotten into a couple of the friday nite 13$ 9ball tournaments which cuts off players rated AA or better.

Now as you are wondering where this is leading, of course i always am looking to better myself in pool, and have found you only get better if you play against better talent. But the # of people who get into the Friday nite tournaments ranges from 5 to at the most i seen about 16.

I also ask some of the better players who have been kicked out of the free tournaments why they dont show up on friday nites, and thier excuses are, in a range from they arnt good enough to i dont want to play those guys to they dont want to spend the 13$ to get thier butts kicked.

So these same players go across town to another pool hall that has a tuesday nite Free tournament that basically allows anyone in. And i begin to wonder is it just the Cheap azz town i live in that creates this? Or is this the same everywhere?

I have talked to a fellow girl/pool player whos dad owns Billiards Cafe in Battle Creek, Mi and she tells me thier weekly 9ball and 8ball tournaments are packed. they run a couple weekly D/E 15$ 9ball tournaments that is packed, and they also run a doubles 8ball tournament on the weekends where the Prize fund is huge.

Now i love to find better competition but unless i am forced, i dont really want to drive 2hrs just to find better competition.

I would love to hear from everyone on this! And what they see in thier Area.

And i live in Holland, Michigan just so everyone knows
Click to expand...

kind of confusing post.......maybe i need to read it again........

but from what i THINK you are asking.......its not just your town. there are two kind of pool players.......those who do things as cheap as possible.......and those who are ultra dedicated and will do as much/spend as much as it takes.........the latter being by far the smallest of the two groups.

as far as competion.........sooner or later you're going to have to travel to find it..........drive the two hours :D

thanks

VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
kind of confusing post.......maybe i need to read it again........

but from what i THINK you are asking.......its not just your town. there are two kind of pool players.......those who do things as cheap as possible.......and those who are ultra dedicated and will do as much/spend as much as it takes.........the latter being by far the smallest of the two groups.

as far as competion.........sooner or later you're going to have to travel to find it..........drive the two hours :D

thanks

VAP
Click to expand...
To add on that a little...
Cheap ones tend to only want the money and don't want a challenge, they want to rob a tournament. Dedicated ones, these are the troopers. They love a challenge. It helps them move up to the next level of their game. Sure they want to win the moolah, but they don't pout or make a scene when they lose. They're good sports in general.
 
Storm,

If your goal is to improve yourself, then keep on playing in the tourneys that you are, including the ones that might cost you a bit more. Living where you do, you are in the same boat we are. Travel will most likely always be needed to get to good tourneys. But, there are alot of strong players in Holland, Grand Rapids, and the surrounding area. So you will always be able to find someone to play with to help you improve.

Most of the tourneys in the area are not as good as they used to be. We have incorporated some team events, the www.drpool.net amatuer tourneys which has no Top Players(this weekend in Traverse City), and even joined the Eagles to play in their state tourneys (about 5 a year). Check out drpools website for standing, schedule, and player ratings from players across the state. We do alot of driving, but it is worth it. Save on expenses and room with teammates or friends.

The Battle Creek weekly tourneys are sweet tourneys. Ask Dirk about them. Friday nights its a 7.00 tourney, that ANYONE can win. No AA players are allowed in it anymore. This tourney isnt as big as it used to be, but still pays out pretty well. As an unknown out of town person, you can usually go low in the Calcutta. :) If you get a chance, take a partner over there for their monthly partners tourney. Huge Payouts for a very small entry. Its only 30.00 per team, and you can expect to go for 50-70 dollars or so in the calcutta if nobody knows you. Figure 1/2 your self in the calcutta, you might have 60.00 invested as a team for a chance at 1500.00 or so. Its handicapped, and the favorites dont always win. Even Dirk and Juan (who had to go to 5), last year when they played together in it.

Hotels around there are cheap also. So you could play the Friday night, then stay for the partners on Saturday for a relatively low cost.

Send me an email if you want to bullshit about some local events or want to play sometime.

On another note, has Fred scheduled his BCA junior qualifiers yet? I got a friend that wants his son to play. Thanks.
 
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Go to the $13 Friday tournaments for sure.

We have a couple of similar tournaments [cost wise] in my area. And guess who shows up? The *very* best players! I've seen some players who frequently win other tournaments walk in, take a look at who is there, learn how much it costs, and walk out.

I'm lucky if I can win one game at one of these more expensive tournaments.

I have frequently not won one single game and been two matches and out.

But I have been watching these players and learning how they beat me. I'm learning lots. Last time I played, I think I won 2 matches and maybe 5 or 6 games (race to two), so I'm improving.

There are fewer players there, but they are all top players. Make *one* mistake, and you are history! And sometimes just the flip of a coin will determine the winner as they will break and run out.

But this is the tournament I look forward to the most. The tournament I want to go to the most. And I always get my rear end kicked big time! But I learn the most there.
 
Ever wonder why the most successful pool rooms have the least number of good players?

There is very close to a 1 to 1 correlation between good pool player and cheap.

If you don't believe it watch what happens when your local pool room puts up $2000 - $3000 in added money for a tournament.

First, pay attention to how many of the players play their matches and leave between matches.

Second, pay attention to how many players eat at the pool room

Third, pay attention to the complaints about the green fees or the quarters.

Fourth, pay attention to the next time the player is in the room...........probably not until another $2000/$3000 is added.
 
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AMEN, Teacherman...have the same problems at my gameroom,,,dedicated shooters come in 3 to 5 nights a week,,,the cheap ones only show up when they think they can win or if you give big $ incentives or nice sticks away, then they don't come back until there's a big prize,,,,,I can live and survive without the latter type,,,,I'm new to the gameroom/pool hall business, but my learning curve is getting faster everyday,,,,,,
 
Teacherman said:
Ever wonder why the most successful pool rooms have the least number of good players?

There is very close to a 1 to 1 correlation between good pool player and cheap.

If you don't believe it watch what happens when your local pool room puts up $2000 - $3000 in added money for a tournament.

First, pay attention to how many of the players play their matches and leave between matches.

Second, pay attention to how many players eat at the pool room

Third, pay attention to the complaints about the green fees or the quarters.

Fourth, pay attention to the next time the player is in the room...........probably not until another $2000/$3000 is added.
Click to expand...

how true.........sadly i'm of this category........although after you pay your 70 or so bucks to get in the tourney, maybe get a hotel, gas.........you're really on a tight budget......so you're not going to eat at the hall, you're gonna go down to 7-ll and pick up something cheap..........you're also alot of times gonna go take a nap in your car........thus you're not in the hall to buy drinks constantly.

also other than teacherman said, take notice as to how many players opt for the water insted of the 1.50 a pop soda. most players don't drink alot of alcohol when they play, whereas the weekly bangers drink alot while banging balls and run up a hefty bar tab.

most pool halls don't hold tourneys that amount to anything because they actually lose money for the days they have tourneys, compared to the normal business day. although i think that its feasable for a pool hall to hold a tourney every once and a while for the players even if they don't make their daily quota.

sad but true.........sad but true.


thanks

VAP
 
No free water at my place.

$1.00 for a bottle of water...............

You can't make money with broke customers.
 
vapoolplayer said:
...although i think that its feasable for a pool hall to hold a tourney every once and a while for the players even if they don't make their daily quota...
Click to expand...

Why would they?

The attitude that because I'm in the pool business and you're a pool player, therefore I owe you something doesn't fly at my place.

You're probably one of the guys that looks at the employee crosseyed when he/she tries to collect pool time after you've made a score.

And, then you converse with your buddies about how the men's pool circuit sucks. Yep it sucks........and the reason is very obvious.

NO VACANCY!!!!!!!!!!! Hit The Road.
 
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I play in a weekly Monday night 9-ball tournament at my favorite poolhall...$8 entry fee. It draws between 30 and 40 players every week. The best thing about it is that it attracts all the best players in town who have a lot of fun competing with each other. It allows me to get really good experience playing good players. And, even I've only made it to the money once, I've gotten my money's worth every time I've played. This kind of experience is very valuable. Sure, I could find a VFW or Moose Lodge and rip off a low level weekly cheap tournament, but what would I gain from that, other than a couple bucks? Just a little short-lived ego stroke until I ran into some of the above mentioned players. I'd rather play quality and grow from it, and would highly recommend you do too. Best of Luck!
rayjay :cool:
 
Teacherman said:
Why would they?

The attitude that because I'm in the pool business and you're a pool player, therefore I owe you something doesn't fly at my place.

You're probably one of the guys that looks at the employee crosseyed when he/she tries to collect pool time after you've made a score.

And, then you converse with your buddies about how the men's pool circuit sucks. Yep it sucks........and the reason is very obvious.

NO VACANCY!!!!!!!!!!! Hit The Road.
Click to expand...

i dont' blame you for that stereotype, as i fully understand it. i do however try to buy sodas, ( i never drink the free water) and i never have a problem paying the tab and table time. matter of fact i spend roughly about 300-400 where i play a month. i do admit to getting cheap when i'm at a tourney, as i'm not made of money. i also try to dress as nice as possible when i'm playing. sometimes i wear just pants and a t-shirt when i'm practicing, but when i play tourneys, no matter if there is a dress code, its always at least khakis and a nice shirt. as its my opinion that the image of pool won't ever change until the image of the players change.

i didn't mean to make it sound like i thought that because i'm a player, that the hall should cater to me, just that it be nice if sometimes they would do things such as a tourney every once and a while for the players, yet i do understand why they don't. the state of pool a very complicated situation and its going to require people from both sides of the fence cooperating together to change anything.

thanks

VAP
 
Unless and until you attend EVERY tournament at your favorite establishment then the risk is too high for the business.

It's a two way street. The owners committment to a tournament to satisfy his players is seldom matched by the players committment to tournament.

"I got in a game last night and didn't feel like getting up."

"It's too nice outside."

"I'm going to the track instead."

"There will be another one next week/month."

"My girlfriend......."

Save it. Just realize it's not worth the owners time. And, until the players clean up their act, there will not be an organized tour whether local or professional.
 
Teacherman said:
Unless and until you attend EVERY tournament at your favorite establishment then the risk is too high for the business.

It's a two way street. The owners committment to a tournament to satisfy his players is seldom matched by the players committment to tournament.

"I got in a game last night and didn't feel like getting up."

"It's too nice outside."

"I'm going to the track instead."

"There will be another one next week/month."

"My girlfriend......."

Save it. Just realize it's not worth the owners time. And, until the players clean up their act, there will not be an organized tour whether local or professional.
Click to expand...

not directing this at you personally...............

this is another example.......people being stubborn and taking sides............

room owners/tourney directiors with your opinion

and players with the excuses, and their opinions

so what is it going to take for everyone to work together?

it has to come from both sides, as long as you say players have to clean their act up, and as long as players say that they don't get what they deserve and that hall owners/tourney organizers don't treat them fair nothing is going to happen.

than when something like the UPA comes along, room owners/tourney organizers say "i don't need the upa" and the players say "i don't need the upa" LOLOLOL.........

i mean, really, what is it going to take people????
 
First, are you talking a local area tour, a regional type tour, or a professional tour.

I'm not into the professionals. Not that I don't have an opinion. But, I'm in business and that is what interests me. I have no desire for any business deal with professional pool.

So we're down to the local or regional level.

Regional doesn't interest me. The only time I'll see those players is when I put up $1000's.

That leaves the local level. With my overhead, I don't have the option of failing very often. Therefore, most of what I do needs to be successful. I just can't get up on Saturday morning and say I don't feel like playing. Which happens way to often for my liking.

So I have to put my time and effort into customers with money. I have 15 yrs of experience that says spend your time with the general public. I have a much better chance of getting 300 people to play for an hour than I do at getting 32 to show up for a tournament. And, the 300 will buy food and beer. The tournament players will try to win the tournament and drink water.

I really see no room for an agreement between the nicer rooms and the players.

I guess the players better hang out at dives with poker machines.
 
The above post was from Businessman Teacherman. This post is from Pool Player Teacherman.

I got into the business because of my interest in the game. I like to think my business is pool, not bar. Atlthough, lately it has started to learn toward bar as we're suffering from the down cycle of pool.

At one time I had 50+ pool teams playing out of my place every week. Instruction was regular. Players improved. You could feel an interest in the game as a hobby. I coached a National Champion at the Junior level and played a role in several top 10 finishes of other juniors. Another junior that frequented my room won a National Championship. Another frequent player won the NCAA tournament. We had a couple of National Championship teams in the Ladies and Trophy division. A team got 2nd in the Open Division in an unbelievable match with a team from Spain. Several teams have placed in the money over the years. Several high finishes in singles. 2nd in the nation in Scotch Doubles. Many of those players now play in regional events and compete very well.

We had the best league in town, all in house. We paid $10,000 first place 3 times per year. About $25,000 total prize money 3 times per year. We had a 9ball tour (regular monthly tournament with immediate prize money and an annual prize fund for top point winners). We had quite a system going.

And it all came to slow death as the greed of players showed it's ugly face. Handicaps were a constant argument. Sandbagging attempts were disgusting. Of the 50+ teams, realistically, 5 or 6 had a chance at first prize. The others were "entry fees". (little chance to win; might cash though)

Guess what the good teams made up of good players did to me. It wasn't good enough to win it ($10,000) now and then and finish top 4 or 5 the rest of the time. ($1000 - $3000) They not only had to win, they had to MF the "entry fee" teams to the point they would quit. Not good enough to beat them on league night. They also had to MF them, stomp them into the ground and make them feel like they didn't want to play anymore.

So as we worked our ass off recruiting new teams (generally beginning players; easy prey for the good teams) bringing them in the front door, my serious teams were MFing them and running them out the back door.

Little by little the league loses ground and now we're down to 20 or so teams. I pay less prize money intentionally. Don't really want those players back.

I really don't see room for compromise.

Now Businessman Teacherman and Pool Player Teacherman have merged into one Teacherman who prefers the general public.
 
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this is just a weekly tournament 9ball, race to 5 winner breaks, finals race to 9, cost 13$.

Well tonight nobody showed up. And it sucks because, i actually want to play better players in tournaments. And i guess if i am going to do that, then i need to travel to other cities for tournaments.

Now the owner (fred) does every 3 or 4 months holds a big 9ball tournament 50$ entry, and it draws more of the better players, Like Jason Kirkwood, Dirk, Juan, Jason Hall. The last one had a crappy turn out, because the nite before it Snow'd from about 11pm to 11am lol, and only 18 people show'd up. The one before drew close to 32 people. And i have gotten into the past 3 tournaments he has held like this, and normally go 2 and out. It doesnt bother me because i know i have probably a slim chance of winning, but i look at it as a test of how i stand against the big players. I generally win several games, but i am just not at the skill level these guys are.

Anyways, The problem i tend to see, is the Free tournaments, Golden 8ball has them, which are nice for the beginner level, because its a race to 4 loser breaks, and Fred will give you the boot if your too good.

Now Q-stick cafe has them on monday and tuesday, also. Monday i have heard is reserved for the beginners, and Tuesday is basically open to anyone, and the guy running the show lets as many people as possible in on Tuesday. These tournaments are race to 4 winner breaks and race to 3 on the 1loss side.

Now if both Q-stick and golden 8, both started charging for these tournaments how many people would show up? maybe half?

Now last summer Fred at the Golden 8, had a thing going for the free tournament players, if you got into 8 of the sunday or monday tournaments, you could play in the end of the summer tournament for 100$.

Which i thought was a pretty good idea too. And it was unlimited entrys, so if 40 or 50 people qualified thats how many spots he would leave open.


I have thought about bringing this upto Fred , about the friday nite tournaments, having something like that every two months, holding a 200-500$ first place tournament, but you had to play in atleast 5 of the previous tournaments to qualify.

Anyways enough ranting tonight. PERK, i sent you a message.
 
Teacherman said:
And it all came to slow death as the greed of players showed it's ugly face. Handicaps were a constant argument. Sandbagging attempts were disgusting. Of the 50+ teams, realistically, 5 or 6 had a chance at first prize. The others were "entry fees". (little chance to win; might cash though)
Click to expand...
This handicap system would fix that, IMO.
http://www.sfbilliards.com/NPL_info.txt
http://www.sfbilliards.com/argonne8.pdf

Teacherman said:
[The good teams] also had to MF them,
Click to expand...
What does this mean?
 
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