Production cue vs Custom cue

TheNewSharkster said:
I had a Jacoby at one point. I have been thinking about getting another.
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I got updates regularly on the phone and emails with photos. They were patient with my every request and question. I highly recommend him to anyone looking for a great custom cue at a great price!
 
JB Cases said:
How so? There are more than 500 brands of custom and production cues.

I bet that most custom and production cues are very similar in how they balance, within an inch or so.

I love a well made cue but what that means is personal to me. I think my first McDermott D-1 was made as well as any other cue on the planet that has ever been made. If you were to take brand names off of cues and submit them to independent testers with no prejudices then you would find that some brands which are vilified because they are "production" and "made overseas" would stand up quite well.

As players we all know what we like. We pick up a cue and it either feels great or not. But this is not because the cue is inherently good or bad, nor because it's production or custom. (by the way a cue that is not CUSTOMIZED is a PRODUCTION cue.)

It's because we as people are different in how we use things. We have different skill levels, different educations, different prejudices, and different experiences.

I have said this many times and this is once more where it's appropriate, it's damn hard to buy a BAD cue these days. We sell a $59 sneaky pete that I would put up against anyone else's cue all day everyday in an independent test. Every cue we sell can be used to win a world championship right out of the box. What more do you want?

I can pretty much guarantee that for any custom cue you can show me then I can find a cue in our inventory that has an identical balance point.
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you say they're balanced within an inch (production/custom cues that is). they're not.

friend of mine has a chad carter and it's extremely forward balanced. it feels like all the weight's in the shaft. i've got a gilbert that, if i remember right, is balanced within an inch of above the wrap. my mezz feels slightly more forward balanced than that. i'm pretty sure they add a weight, just like predator cues does, right below the joint. there's a reason predator puts another weight bolt behind their joints. i think it's to simulate more dense wood in the forearm of the cue. that's a guess though you'd have to ask a predator rep to be sure.

i think guys that live in the far east are a little over sensitive about assumptions made about cues made over seas. there're a couple of decent production cues made over seas but people really remember being burned on what they thought was a deal. ebay and cheap cue makers in the PI can be blamed for that.
 
My 2 cents. I suffered many sarcastic comments and some harassment for trying to sell my Pechauer in the Sell/Trade forum. I think there is the running mentality that a production cue is automatically crappy and worthless, even though there may be no merit to that assumption. From what I can gather from all these preceding posts, people buy custom cues because they want a cue that looks good to them and plays well. Many production cues have a hit or balance that they don't like, don't play well, or are made with inferior materials or techniques, and that's why a lot of people prefer to stay away from them. Also, collectors don't want to have a cue that's mass produced because then it's not rare and therefore collectible. However, the many negative comments about my Pechauer had no backup other than "it's still a production cue". There was very criticism concerning its materials, its hit, its appearances, or its rarity. This leads me to believe that there is an irrational attitude with some people that leads them to believe that production cues are terrible solely because they are not custom built by a cuemaker for a client.
 
jcommie said:
My 2 cents. I suffered many sarcastic comments and some harassment for trying to sell my Pechauer in the Sell/Trade forum. I think there is the running mentality that a production cue is automatically crappy and worthless, even though there may be no merit to that assumption. From what I can gather from all these preceding posts, people buy custom cues because they want a cue that looks good to them and plays well. Many production cues have a hit or balance that they don't like, don't play well, or are made with inferior materials or techniques, and that's why a lot of people prefer to stay away from them. Also, collectors don't want to have a cue that's mass produced because then it's not rare and therefore collectible. However, the many negative comments about my Pechauer had no backup other than "it's still a production cue". There was very criticism concerning its materials, its hit, its appearances, or its rarity. This leads me to believe that there is an irrational attitude with some people that leads them to believe that production cues are terrible solely because they are not custom built by a cuemaker for a client.
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i like some production cues. mezz, joss, lucasi, fury all seem to make respectable cues.

with the exception of lucasi (radial pin one) i had some problems with where the balance is on some of these cues.
 
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jcommie said:
My 2 cents. I suffered many sarcastic comments and some harassment for trying to sell my Pechauer in the Sell/Trade forum. I think there is the running mentality that a production cue is automatically crappy and worthless, even though there may be no merit to that assumption. From what I can gather from all these preceding posts, people buy custom cues because they want a cue that looks good to them and plays well. Many production cues have a hit or balance that they don't like, don't play well, or are made with inferior materials or techniques, and that's why a lot of people prefer to stay away from them. Also, collectors don't want to have a cue that's mass produced because then it's not rare and therefore collectible. However, the many negative comments about my Pechauer had no backup other than "it's still a production cue". There was very criticism concerning its materials, its hit, its appearances, or its rarity. This leads me to believe that there is an irrational attitude with some people that leads them to believe that production cues are terrible solely because they are not custom built by a cuemaker for a client.
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I really like that Pechauer :smile:
 
My point exactly. And Joe Pechauer is a very skilled cuemaker, and from my knowledge has not sold out like Bob Meucci. I know production cues have gotten a bad rep from, for example, the declining quality of Meuccis and McDermotts in the past years (like plastic inlays, sucky wood) due to outsourcing and using cheaper materials, but that shouldn't apply to ALL production cues. Schon makes wonderful cues and you can see from a lot of their BEM cues how well figured the wood is. That really says something about the quality of their materials. The fact that they hit great only makes them more comparable to a custom cue of similar design.

Edit: The reason I sound upset is because of posts like ones in this thread. I try to help out the seller by telling him about my bad experience with trying to sell a rare and good looking Pechauer and how he should probably take that into account if he really wants to sell them here, and this other guy comes in and insults my cue. Elitist attitudes towards production cues make absolutely no sense when the cue in question has none of the negative aspects that are normally associated with it. If that exact same cue had a different signature on it, for example Cory Barnhart's signature, he'd be singing a completely different tune. Reminds me of brand name snobs who think their plain black Armani T's are somehow a hundred times better than one from walmart just because they cost a hundred times more.

http://forums.azbilliards.com//showthread.php?t=128066
 
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poolplayer2093 said:
you say they're balanced within an inch (production/custom cues that is). they're not.

friend of mine has a chad carter and it's extremely forward balanced. it feels like all the weight's in the shaft. i've got a gilbert that, if i remember right, is balanced within an inch of above the wrap. my mezz feels slightly more forward balanced than that. i'm pretty sure they add a weight, just like predator cues does, right below the joint. there's a reason predator puts another weight bolt behind their joints. i think it's to simulate more dense wood in the forearm of the cue. that's a guess though you'd have to ask a predator rep to be sure.

i think guys that live in the far east are a little over sensitive about assumptions made about cues made over seas. there're a couple of decent production cues made over seas but people really remember being burned on what they thought was a deal. ebay and cheap cue makers in the PI can be blamed for that.
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I said that if you show me any cue with a certain balance point - be it Gilbert, SouthWest or otherwise then I can find you an off-the-shelf production cue with a balance point within one inch of that cue.

Through my business I have owned more than one hundred "custom" cues and hundreds of production cues.

Like a few other people here I have extensive experience with both sides and have spent a fair amount of time in cue maker's shops.

You can't lump cues into one category or the other and be accurate.

I personally don't care where a cue is made nor whether it's production or "small shop". I pick it up and play with it and it either feels good or doesn't. That's really all there is too it and the only other criteria is reputation because I can pick up a cue that feels great but doesn't stay together. The only way to know this is by paying attention to the reputation of the cue maker.
 
jcommie said:
My point exactly. And Joe Pechauer is a very skilled cuemaker, and from my knowledge has not sold out like Bob Meucci. I know production cues have gotten a bad rep from, for example, the declining quality of Meuccis and McDermotts in the past years (like plastic inlays, sucky wood) due to outsourcing and using cheaper materials, but that shouldn't apply to ALL production cues. Schon makes wonderful cues and you can see from a lot of their BEM cues how well figured the wood is. That really says something about the quality of their materials. The fact that they hit great only makes them more comparable to a custom cue of similar design.

Edit: The reason I sound upset is because of posts like ones in this thread. I try to help out the seller by telling him about my bad experience with trying to sell a rare and good looking Pechauer and how he should probably take that into account if he really wants to sell them here, and this other guy comes in and insults my cue. Elitist attitudes towards production cues make absolutely no sense when the cue in question has none of the negative aspects that are normally associated with it. If that exact same cue had a different signature on it, for example Cory Barnhart's signature, he'd be singing a completely different tune. Reminds me of brand name snobs who think their plain black Armani T's are somehow a hundred times better than one from walmart just because they cost a hundred times more.

http://forums.azbilliards.com//showthread.php?t=128066
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What does "sold out" mean to you because there is probably more to the issue than you know and more relationships in the cue business than you know about.
 
He sold his name to a diff company from what I know. That's how the "Meucci Originals" came about I think.
 
JB Cases said:
I said that if you show me any cue with a certain balance point - be it Gilbert, SouthWest or otherwise then I can find you an off-the-shelf production cue with a balance point within one inch of that cue.

Through my business I have owned more than one hundred "custom" cues and hundreds of production cues.

Like a few other people here I have extensive experience with both sides and have spent a fair amount of time in cue maker's shops.

You can't lump cues into one category or the other and be accurate.

I personally don't care where a cue is made nor whether it's production or "small shop". I pick it up and play with it and it either feels good or doesn't. That's really all there is too it and the only other criteria is reputation because I can pick up a cue that feels great but doesn't stay together. The only way to know this is by paying attention to the reputation of the cue maker.
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Is that what you said? i think that may have been what you meant but not what you said.

a friend of mine had a cue from a respected cue maker (also a member here) that played really well but warped within a year.

you're right for sure though. the best way to pick a cue is to pick it up and try it out.i think you're just more likely to get a custom cue that plays jam up than a production cue. there're plenty of production cues that play well though. meaning a gilbert jump break plays way better than most players cues.
 
jcommie said:
My point exactly. And Joe Pechauer is a very skilled cuemaker, and from my knowledge has not sold out like Bob Meucci. I know production cues have gotten a bad rep from, for example, the declining quality of Meuccis and McDermotts in the past years (like plastic inlays, sucky wood) due to outsourcing and using cheaper materials, but that shouldn't apply to ALL production cues. Schon makes wonderful cues and you can see from a lot of their BEM cues how well figured the wood is. That really says something about the quality of their materials. The fact that they hit great only makes them more comparable to a custom cue of similar design.

Edit: The reason I sound upset is because of posts like ones in this thread. I try to help out the seller by telling him about my bad experience with trying to sell a rare and good looking Pechauer and how he should probably take that into account if he really wants to sell them here, and this other guy comes in and insults my cue. Elitist attitudes towards production cues make absolutely no sense when the cue in question has none of the negative aspects that are normally associated with it. If that exact same cue had a different signature on it, for example Cory Barnhart's signature, he'd be singing a completely different tune. Reminds me of brand name snobs who think their plain black Armani T's are somehow a hundred times better than one from walmart just because they cost a hundred times more.

http://forums.azbilliards.com//showthread.php?t=128066
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any idea why the cuemaker who's cues you're selling chose to make the cues KKK cues?
 
jcommie said:
He sold his name to a diff company from what I know. That's how the "Meucci Originals" came about I think.
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Bob hasn't sold the Meucci name to anyone else. Meucci Originals was the first logo that was on the Meucci cues and later it was changed to just Meucci in a stylized script.
 
If anyone has a question about the Meucci's, try Stevel (Steve Lomax of Lomax custom cues. He was/is a friend of Bob's. At one time I think he had pretty much one of everything Meucci(Including a table, if memory serves me).
 
JB Cases said:
Bob hasn't sold the Meucci name to anyone else. Meucci Originals was the first logo that was on the Meucci cues and later it was changed to just Meucci in a stylized script.
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I'm sorry, I was misinformed then. I know I read that somewhere. Some guy said that the difference between a Meucci and a Meucci Original was that bob sold Meucci name and then started making them again, hence the "original". I believed him. :sorry:
At least now I know the truth :grin:
 
poolplayer2093 said:
you say they're balanced within an inch (production/custom cues that is). they're not.
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They aren't? Then show me a chart which lists the balance point from the bumper of all "custom" (meaning cues from small shops) and production cues (meaning cues from large shops). I'd be very interested to know what the range of balance points are and in seeing if most of them aren't within and inch of each other.


friend of mine has a chad carter and it's extremely forward balanced. it feels like all the weight's in the shaft. i've got a gilbert that, if i remember right, is balanced within an inch of above the wrap. my mezz feels slightly more forward balanced than that. i'm pretty sure they add a weight, just like predator cues does, right below the joint. there's a reason predator puts another weight bolt behind their joints. i think it's to simulate more dense wood in the forearm of the cue. that's a guess though you'd have to ask a predator rep to be sure.
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This is sample of two cues out of around a thousand brands. Sure some companies play with the balance point because they feel they are doing something to make the cue play better - and maybe they are, but you still can't make a general statement that the "difference" between custom and production is the balance point. Because A. most cues have balance points that are very close due to the fact that most cues are very similar in construction and there is sort of a standard due to what works and what most people like.

i think guys that live in the far east are a little over sensitive about assumptions made about cues made over seas. there're a couple of decent production cues made over seas but people really remember being burned on what they thought was a deal. ebay and cheap cue makers in the PI can be blamed for that.
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Actually there are quite a LOT of great cues being made overseas, from large factories and from small makers. Adams, Helmstetter, Mezz, Fury, 5280, Lucasi, Predator, Blaze, Competition, Viatorre, Edwin Reyes Cues, a couple of custom makers in Taiwan, KF Cues, carom cues, snooker cues, pool/carom hybrids, low deflection shafts.

I am oversensitive about misguided assumptions about any product. I am with you and others that a great cue feels great. I have yet to play with a Fury that feels as good to me as my Gilbert or my Jensen or my Scruggs. But some of them were close and all of the Furys I have used were and are good enough to play perfect pool with. I could also name some other "custom" brands that also don't feel as good to me as my Fury. They are not made with any less quality and care, they just don't do it for me.

That's why it's impossible to make general statements like this and be accurate. I guarantee you that if I wanted to I could start a cue brand and have the cues made in the factory and advertise them as "custom" from a tiny shop and no one would know the difference unless they actually came to the tiny shop and saw that it was just a warehouse. It's perfectly possible to do this and I am sure it's no surprise to you when I tell you that it has been done before and continues to be done today with no one who isn't informed of it being the wiser.

If the cue is totally spec'd out then the factory can build it. Kao Kao gets 300 AAA grade shafts out of 60,000 pieces of shaft wood. They have bins of AAA grade birdseye maple and other hardwoods. They can make a cue with any balance point you want in any number of ways, by combining the right woods, by coring, by adding weight bolts in specific places, using different joint constructions, etc....

So I agree that one cue can feel much better than another. I agree that the balance of one can be more comfortable than another. I also know that given any two random people that the cue they prefer out of two choices is likely to switch every two people.

I love custom cues and what the small cue makers are doing. I have the greatest respect in the world for how hard they work and the care and love they put into the craft. I was much happier when I was neutral and just a case maker. But as it is now I am a salesman for a company that sells production cues and for me personally I have to have conviction that the cues we sell are good. That conviction comes from two years in the factory involved with every aspect of the process backed by my general experience of 18 years in this business and 25 years as a player. The sensitivity comes in when people confuse romance with reality. It's ok if you love your cue and you think it's the greatest thing on Earth. Just don't use that love to make a statement that such and such brand or category is inferior when you don't really know that from a structural standpoint.

 
i'm not good with computers so instead of quoting the things you said i've bolded them to make this easier to read.

They aren't? Then show me a chart which lists the balance point from the bumper of all "custom" (meaning cues from small shops) and production cues (meaning cues from large shops). I'd be very interested to know what the range of balance points are and in seeing if most of them aren't within and inch of each other.


i'm not sure a list like that exists. there're so many cue makers these days that i'm not even sure there's even a list of all of them.

then there're the makers that make cues to their customers specs. meaning what ever balance point the customer wants.

That's why it's impossible to make general statements like this and be accurate. I guarantee you that if I wanted to I could start a cue brand and have the cues made in the factory and advertise them as "custom" from a tiny shop and no one would know the difference unless they actually came to the tiny shop and saw that it was just a warehouse. It's perfectly possible to do this and I am sure it's no surprise to you when I tell you that it has been done before and continues to be done today with no one who isn't informed of it being the wiser.

Statements like what?

I love custom cues and what the small cue makers are doing. I have the greatest respect in the world for how hard they work and the care and love they put into the craft. I was much happier when I was neutral and just a case maker. But as it is now I am a salesman for a company that sells production cues and for me personally I have to have conviction that the cues we sell are good. That conviction comes from two years in the factory involved with every aspect of the process backed by my general experience of 18 years in this business and 25 years as a player. The sensitivity comes in when people confuse romance with reality. It's ok if you love your cue and you think it's the greatest thing on Earth. Just don't use that love to make a statement that such and such brand or category is inferior when you don't really know that from a structural standpoint.

i think most people that speak ill of cues made in the far east comes from people getting burned trying to buy cues from the PI. i can't even bring up cues in a pool hall without someone bring up how they bought a cue from ebay from the PI that was loaded with ivory and it practically fell apart within a few months. just hearing things like that makes people think they should stay away from cues made out east.

then there's guys like me who prefer to keep my cash in the US and try to only buy american products. i still have a soft spot for mezz cues though so i make that the exception
 
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