coopdeville said:
Here's some rsb discussion from five years ago after Sigel made a similar claim in Billiard's Digest.
http://tinyurl.com/2hjxtn
prove me wrong
- Thread starter Ballistic Billiards
- Start date
Here's some rsb discussion from five years ago after Sigel made a similar claim in Billiard's Digest.
http://tinyurl.com/2hjxtn
Dr. Dave, on object ball throw at slow speed.
Come on. Give Dr. Dave CREDIT. It's his video. If you want to learn A LOT about this kind of knowledge check out all of Chapter 4. You can access it online, purchase your own CD, book, or online copy.
This is object ball spin induced throw. ON a bank shot it is EXTREMELY valuable.
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-6.htm
This is the index for one of his sections.
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html
For cut shot throw at slow speed
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-9.htm
Everyone could learn a lot from his information but don't let me see you applying the 30 degree rule or I'll know you got it from me & Dr. Dave.
JoeyA
WesleyW said:
Come on. Give Dr. Dave CREDIT. It's his video. If you want to learn A LOT about this kind of knowledge check out all of Chapter 4. You can access it online, purchase your own CD, book, or online copy.
This is object ball spin induced throw. ON a bank shot it is EXTREMELY valuable.
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-6.htm
This is the index for one of his sections.
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html
For cut shot throw at slow speed
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-9.htm
Everyone could learn a lot from his information but don't let me see you applying the 30 degree rule or I'll know you got it from me & Dr. Dave.
JoeyA
You are correct in what you say, but here you are talking about 2 balls, in which case the second ball has it's trajectory changed by the transferred spin on the first object ball. The original poster was talking about a single object ball. The spin of one ball will throw the next ball because of the friction and lateral movement of the first ball's contacting surface. Although this will transfer some spin to the second ball, the throw that results is not the result of that transferred spin. The throw happens immediately. Spin on a ball doesn't make the ball curve, unless there is some bottom or top English involved (masse').Neil said:
oh well
I tried and tried
I gave "Dr. Dave" a shot
on a side note,
I'm going to try to find some material on CIT.
Thanks.
I tried and tried
I gave "Dr. Dave" a shot
on a side note,
I'm going to try to find some material on CIT.
Thanks.
pwd72s said:
Of course you have time. Not everyone was throwing pool balls into pockets when they could barely walk. All it takes is practice and realizing what does what. I could make balls all day using simple physics but I run racks from experience and feeling out a table. All it takes is practice, with practice comes experience.
JoeyA said:
CIT = Contact Induced Throw
He is talked about SIT = spin induced throw.
Pretty easy to test for in my thinking
Set two objects ( anything straight vertically) apart just a little wide enough for the cue ball to go through and put an OB on the other side.
Strike the cueball with center left or center right and hit through the opening without hitting the objects before contact. Mark where the ball hits the end rail or side rail or whatever other marking surface you are using.
Then strike the CB thorugh the opening with plain center and mark where the OB goes.
Repeat many times and check each time.
He is saying ( i think ) that simply applying sidespin to the cueball will not be enough to add a significant amount of throw on the OB to make or not make a shot.
I disagree but think that speed can make a world of difference in how much throw is porduced. I also think that the angle the cueball comes into the shot matters alot.
IMO theres one shot that JR Goff showed me early on that proves it.
He took an OB and set it about one diamond off the side rail and a diamond off the end rail and then set the cue ball behind it about 6-8 inches. He then blocked the contact point from being hit with the cueball
with another ball. He asked me could I make the ball and I told him no that the other ball was in the way. He then told me to shoot it with
outside english using a smooth easy stroke. I did and was amazed that I hit the spot that I thought the ball would miss the pocket down table but it did not. It threw too much and hit the long rail before the pocket.
He then set up another shot where he said you could "bend" a ball around another one. He set the OB very slightly behind another ball. The OB would not go straight into the pocket due to the other ball keeping it from being hit straight. He then hit it and it threw around the ball and headed down table into the pocket. He said it was only able to be done when the OB and blocking balls are very very close together.
IMO its also easy to see that english transfers to the OB to a high degree so I would think english alone combined with friction would cause the OB to "throw" off of its orginal course.
John Barton
New member
There is another shot you can play with to see the effects of transfered spin.
You can make an object ball back up. I used to play around with this a long time ago but I found that I could make the object ball ball roll forwards and backwards a little bit by hitting it dead into another ball with lots of either follow or draw to get the opposite effect on the object ball.
I would use this to sho how to pocket an object ball in the side pocket as a carom when the second ball was too far uptable to have a natural carom angle into the side.
As for the seeing it when banking balls - All you have to do here is put the object ball in a position where it is impossible to bank it in without spin. Put blockers in such a way that it is physically impossible to hit the rail at the natural banking angle. Then proceed to bank that puppy in all day long with enough opposite sdie spin.
All one pocket players know how to do this.
And one more shot that you can do to see it. Put two balls on the spot and shoot the lower ball so that it hits the rail and spins out above the upper ball. Freeze the cueball to the lower ball. We used to play this standard safety all the time and the ONLY way to do it is to add spin to the object ball so that it hits the rail and the spin takes it above the other ball. Otherwise it will come back and hit the object ball or go lower and not be safe.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AALU4BATl4PFyl4VATm3VbPn3VJIp3VHEk4uBOP@
I don't know if this will load the cuetable but here is the last shot.
You can make an object ball back up. I used to play around with this a long time ago but I found that I could make the object ball ball roll forwards and backwards a little bit by hitting it dead into another ball with lots of either follow or draw to get the opposite effect on the object ball.
I would use this to sho how to pocket an object ball in the side pocket as a carom when the second ball was too far uptable to have a natural carom angle into the side.
As for the seeing it when banking balls - All you have to do here is put the object ball in a position where it is impossible to bank it in without spin. Put blockers in such a way that it is physically impossible to hit the rail at the natural banking angle. Then proceed to bank that puppy in all day long with enough opposite sdie spin.
All one pocket players know how to do this.
And one more shot that you can do to see it. Put two balls on the spot and shoot the lower ball so that it hits the rail and spins out above the upper ball. Freeze the cueball to the lower ball. We used to play this standard safety all the time and the ONLY way to do it is to add spin to the object ball so that it hits the rail and the spin takes it above the other ball. Otherwise it will come back and hit the object ball or go lower and not be safe.
http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AALU4BATl4PFyl4VATm3VbPn3VJIp3VHEk4uBOP@
I don't know if this will load the cuetable but here is the last shot.
John Barton
New member
Oh I see what you all are talking about. Sorry. I don't "know" about throwing the object ball.
I guess the closest thing to this that I could see is when you have to cut a ball on a certain angle but you hit it full with spin instead to "throw" it in. I always do this when I need to get position that the natural angle doesn't afford me. And I am not talking about masse'ing the cue ball into the object ball either.
This is when you take a shot that has a definite angle to make it with no english and you aim it to miss but with english and it throws into the right angle. I don't know HOW it works but it works. I also use this to make object balls "squeeze" by blocking balls. At least that's how it feels. I am sure there are prefectly good physics explanations to describe what I experience. All good players know what I mean though.
Sorry. I don't "know" about throwing the object ball. I guess the closest thing to this that I could see is when you have to cut a ball on a certain angle but you hit it full with spin instead to "throw" it in. I always do this when I need to get position that the natural angle doesn't afford me. And I am not talking about masse'ing the cue ball into the object ball either.
This is when you take a shot that has a definite angle to make it with no english and you aim it to miss but with english and it throws into the right angle. I don't know HOW it works but it works. I also use this to make object balls "squeeze" by blocking balls. At least that's how it feels. I am sure there are prefectly good physics explanations to describe what I experience. All good players know what I mean though.
easy
the easy way to say this is,
make the OB masse by spinning the CB into it.
This is spin induced throw.
That makes it sound easy right?
So, if I hit the CB with maximum english, with a level stroke,
the CB should also be "thrown"?
I think that everyone will agree that you can't "throw"(masse)
the cueball by just putting left or right spin on it.
I'll put up a prize for capturing on video, clearly,
an OB curving around something after hitting it with the CB.
this is spin induced throw.
Dr. Dave couldn't do it, I've never seen it, prove me wrong.
I know I'm not capable, I tried enough times to know.
I just did a web search and Dr. Dave is the only one talking about this.
the easy way to say this is,
make the OB masse by spinning the CB into it.
This is spin induced throw.
That makes it sound easy right?
So, if I hit the CB with maximum english, with a level stroke,
the CB should also be "thrown"?
I think that everyone will agree that you can't "throw"(masse)
the cueball by just putting left or right spin on it.
I'll put up a prize for capturing on video, clearly,
an OB curving around something after hitting it with the CB.
this is spin induced throw.
Dr. Dave couldn't do it, I've never seen it, prove me wrong.
I know I'm not capable, I tried enough times to know.
I just did a web search and Dr. Dave is the only one talking about this.
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No. Masse has nothing to do with any of thiscoopdeville said:
OK, and that means the cueball will move a little faster or slower in the tangent direction depending on cut angle.
They'll agree you can't masse it, but they won't agree you can't throw it. Hit a shot dead full with left english and the cueball will drift to the left a bit as the object ball gets thrown to the right a bit.
OK I see the problem. Nobody, so far as I can tell, suggests an object ball curves as a result of throw.
I just did a web search and Dr. Dave is the only one talking about this.
I would be very surprised if Dr. Dave talks about what you think he's talking about (making an object ball curve). Throw and masse (swerve) are two completely different animals. I think you should read it again.
yeah
and this from Bob Jewett, which is interesting.
I would have been happy to see my OB turn one rotation
on it's vertical axis, over the length of the table.
You would have to masse the OB using the CB to change the
path of the OB. The same effect that we use to get the CB
around a blocking ball by striking it at a downward angle w/ side spin.
IMO, this is impossible.
and this from Bob Jewett, which is interesting.
I would have been happy to see my OB turn one rotation
on it's vertical axis, over the length of the table.
You would have to masse the OB using the CB to change the
path of the OB. The same effect that we use to get the CB
around a blocking ball by striking it at a downward angle w/ side spin.
IMO, this is impossible.
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mikepage said:
What is "throw" if it's not a masse effect on the OB?
When I hit a ball full w/ maximum english, the CB spins in place, fast.
If the OB is not supposed to swerve, what exactly is the benefit of imparting the side spin?
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coopdeville said:
????
He shows it here:
Using throw to make a partially blocked shot
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-15.htm
here:
HSV 4.6 - Object-ball throw at slow speed
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-6.htm
and here:
HSV 4.7 - Object-ball throw at fast speed
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV4-7.htm
He proves it here:
English-induced throw effects
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/TP_4-3.pdf
here:
TP A.27 - Spin transfer
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-27.pdf
here:
TP A.28 - Throw plots for all types of shots
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-28.pdf
and here:
TP A.29 - Using throw to limit cue ball motion
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-29.pdf
What more do you want?
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sorry
please refer to my first post in this thread regarding these videos.
gregory said:
please refer to my first post in this thread regarding these videos.
coopdeville said:
If you won't accept visual proof, especially
Using throw to make a partially blocked shot
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/p...eos/NV4-15.htm
and you won't accept mathematical proofs, what do you want?
coopdeville said:I gave "Dr. Dave" a shot
WTF is that supposed to mean? Do you need God to write it out on some tablets for you or something? Or are you just trolling?
gregory said:
That URL was cut off, I think this one works:
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-15.htm
last time.
since this shot is supposed to be a dead full hit on the OB.
shouldn't the cue ball stop and not follow the tangent of a cut shot?
and shouldn't the OB be spinning?
I'll not discuss Dr. Dave's works further.
PKM said:
since this shot is supposed to be a dead full hit on the OB.
shouldn't the cue ball stop and not follow the tangent of a cut shot?
and shouldn't the OB be spinning?
I'll not discuss Dr. Dave's works further.
hopeless
After reading this thread, I believe that all the nice people who made sincere efforts to help this fellow understand that throw does exist and is an essential technique for playing pool at anything above a banger level have made their efforts in vain. Any impartial reader of this thread can see that the original poster will never accept any evidence or argument regarding throw. It is almost impossible to believe that his intention in starting this thread was a sincere desire to learn anything whatsoever. Or I suppose it is possible that he simply can't understand.
After reading this thread, I believe that all the nice people who made sincere efforts to help this fellow understand that throw does exist and is an essential technique for playing pool at anything above a banger level have made their efforts in vain. Any impartial reader of this thread can see that the original poster will never accept any evidence or argument regarding throw. It is almost impossible to believe that his intention in starting this thread was a sincere desire to learn anything whatsoever. Or I suppose it is possible that he simply can't understand.
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