well,Ken,as usual, there is a story. i got the joint material from prathers. called GRICE. i liked it so well, i decided to go ahead and order some in butt size. and to my dismay, i was informed it is no longer available and would not be manufactured again. i got the butt material from cuecomponents. i aksed joe what it was, ivorine4? his reply was "it's just white stuff" . so your guess is as good as mine what it is. heavier weave than the grice. resembles the new ivorine 4.