"Push-Out" Tournament Dispute

Covelo

Covelo

InTheZone
Silver Member
I was playing in a 9-ball tournament yesterday and called a push-out; I looked straight at my opponent and said "push", then "push-out", then proceeded to play an obvious push shot. My oppenent then walked up to the table and looked at the position of the cue-ball, then declared, "You didn't call a push-out."

We called in the tournament director who ultimatley declared a ball-in-hand for my oppenent, who then proceeded to run-out and win the game.

I'm wondering if you've ever seen this happen in a tournament and what the director's decision was in those cases. Also, I think there's a tournament rule somewhere that gives the benefit of the doubt to the shooter when there is no official on hand to make a call... but this may only apply to a "bad hit" situation.
 
Ruling in favor of your opponent seems idiotic to me..

Leaving the decision for the guy to either shoot it or give it back would seem like the only logical choice for a TD in that situation? If the cueball is that terrible the opponent (one claiming that foul) can just say "shoot it" If it's not that terrible then he has odds to play the game?

Just my .02.. Not sure if I expressed them very well in that post, but more or less just saying if I was the TD I'd tell the guy to make the choice of what he wants to do, I certainly wouldn't give him BIH, unless I was inclined to believe that the shooter was lieing for some reason.

DJ
 
Covelo said:
I was playing in a 9-ball tournament yesterday and called a push-out; I looked straight at my opponent and said "push", then "push-out", then proceeded to play an obvious push shot. My oppenent then walked up to the table and looked at the position of the cue-ball, then declared, "You didn't call a push-out."

We called in the tournament director who ultimatley declared a ball-in-hand for my oppenent, who then proceeded to run-out and win the game.

I'm wondering if you've ever seen this happen in a tournament and what the director's decision was in those cases.
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I've never seen it, even my worst nightmares. Seems your opponent knew more about the TD's foibles than you did. I'd speak to whoever chooses TDs for that venue.
 
were you playing chamat?

Chamat pulled just about the exact same crap in WPC last year. I looked it up, and it turns out it was against John Schmidt!!! Here is what happened according to another AZ thread http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=15009

Marcus was playing John Schmidt. John called a push and was looking at Marcus when he did so. Marcus acknowledged in some form (head nod or something to that effect). When John pushed out, the ref called a foul. John was not aware that the ref didn't hear him. When Marcus asked if he heard the push called, he said no.

Ever since then, i have always rooted against Chamat. And even if the ref/your opponent claims they didn't hear you, are you and John Schmidt such poor players that when you make no attempt to hit the 1-ball, they actually think you were shooting at it and scratched instead of pushed out. How anyone can want to win by such cheap tactics is beyond me.
 
Sigh....another reason to give up one-foul-ball-in-hand 9 ball. What a crock!!
 
I've heard of it happening before. I don't agree with the TD's call. I have seen cases where the player did not call push, but it was obvious, and then it got called. I think that is pretty ridiculous too.
I was starting a match in Detroit at one of the Mcdermott tour stops, As I flipped the coin for the break, my opponent called tails and it came up heads. He kept standing around and when I finally asked him to rack the balls, he started to argue with me. Said he called heads and it was my rack. After a very short argument, I gave in and proceeded to beat him 9-3. After the match was over, the 2 guys on the table next to us said they couldn't believe he did that. I informed the TD of what happened so she could be aware his behaviour.
They all get paid back for those types of actions in the end. Sam
 
Several of us were treated to a similar type of behavior from Karen Corr at Peoria this year. At a critical point in a critical match (winner advances to television round) Karen kicked at a one ball - hit the one ball, but nothing hit a rail thereafter. Her opponent walks to the table, reaches for the cue ball, asking Karen if it was a foul. Karen only could say, "it was a good hit." As another poster mentioned, perhaps she's picking up some new habits by playing with the men.

The opponent in these situations is just screwed; the only options are to call your opponent a liar, making a scene; or just accept it like satman and try to prevail with the handicap.
 
Covelo said:
We called in the tournament director who ultimatley declared a ball-in-hand for my oppenent, who then proceeded to run-out and win the game.
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What reasoning did the TD give for ruling in favor of your opponent?
 
I'd call it in favour of the player that shot the shot...
Does that sound normal?
If I remember the rules right (Which i need to know by heart, but I think I know 95% by heart and the rest is on my laptop) in a situation on the table on if you can't call it because you didn't see what happened and there's no referee... you'd make a decision in favour of the player on table.
For example: Player A does something, Player B syas it's a foul. Player A and B argue, discuss however you want to call it. Player A or B get the TD. Td listens to the story (both sides). Looks at the table, and decides he can't decide in the issue whether is was a foul or not. TD then should decide that player A can continue... We had term for it during the EPC's.. But I can't remember it anymore.
Hoped this helped a bit...
 
shir said:
you'd make a decision in favour of the player on table.
...
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Shir,
That is the usual procedure....but it is basically saying that such disputes are resolved in favor of the cheater.:) :)
 
no it's not..
Like in Covelo's case it would be right.. Or are you calling him a cheater now? ;)
 
Not what Willie meant

shir said:
no it's not..
Like in Covelo's case it would be right.. Or are you calling him a cheater now? ;)
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I think he's saying when a situation arises involving a dispute over a Ball in Hand foul, it is usually the shooter who committed the foul and won't admit it. In this case, the foul was committed by the incoming player, for being dishonest about the pushout. If you have to cheat to win, you should take 2 weeks off, and then quit playing pool altogether.
 
in some situation yeah...
but i've seen situation where it's the other way around!
When there's no referee and they can't solve it between them...
It's a difficult case anyways!!

Could be that Player A made a foul but wasn't aware of it... Player B can call it a foul, but if Player A insists that he didn't feel it or something like that.. There's nothing a TD can do..
He can't call it a foul or no foul..
He/she didn't see it!! Can't call! So benefit of the doubt... to Player A
 
Williebetmore said:
Several of us were treated to a similar type of behavior from Karen Corr at Peoria this year. At a critical point in a critical match (winner advances to television round) Karen kicked at a one ball - hit the one ball, but nothing hit a rail thereafter. Her opponent walks to the table, reaches for the cue ball, asking Karen if it was a foul. Karen only could say, "it was a good hit." As another poster mentioned, perhaps she's picking up some new habits by playing with the men.

The opponent in these situations is just screwed; the only options are to call your opponent a liar, making a scene; or just accept it like satman and try to prevail with the handicap.
Click to expand...

You have to be kidding about this - or mistaken I hope. If neither than that's pretty sick behavior by Karen.

In the OP's example, tournament director's should, above all else, follow a 'common-sense' logic to decisions. In this example, it really doesn't make any sense that the player at the table would shoot the cue ball in a direction other than at the one ball, hit nothing, and leave the cue ball in a decent 'push-out' position unless he actually meant to push out. It doesn't make any sense that a player would do that, so why make that ruling.

On an unrelated note - I had some fun with the push out rule once. After the break I had a very difficult situation where there really was no push that was a decent option. I didn't like any of my safety options so I decided to try to pull a fast one. I looked my opponent dead in the eye and said, "Push," very clearly. He nodded and, after stalling around for about a minute, I played a shot where I took a crazy kick shot at the one ball, but just missed it by about a millimeter. I then exhaled loudly with anger. My opponent then walked up to the table and picked up the cue ball thinking he had ball-in-hand, only for me to remind him that I had said "push" and he had acknowledged it. Through stalling around and then playing a shot that didn't look like a push, I tricked him and earned my own ball in hand as a result!

A fun angle shot, but not one I would pull in a serious game.
 
PoolBum,

The director ruled that because my opponent hadn't acknowledged that I called a push... it was a foul. He said that the rules were on my opponents side in this case. But when I looked up the rule on the internet, it says that one must declare a "push", but it doesn't say that the opponent has to acknowledge it before you shoot. Maybe someone can look up what it says in their rule book and post a quote for this.

(Sorry about skipping town on this topic guys... I forgot I posted it here.)
 
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