Push Out

[soyale]

It would be interesting to set up and film a match between two opponents that used these rules in the distant past and perhaps have a voice over with the participants detailing what they were thinking at key points of the match. I am interested in this. I can remember reading about push out in various books like Buddy Hall's book but really never appreciated or understood the difference. Likely it would be significant and fun to play this variant. Anybody in Denver still around that played this way and still play at a high level? I can think of a few but not naming names. My son is a video editor. It might be cool to film something. Probably not enough mainstream interest but hey I can dream.

i would love this. I am also a filmer/editor in denver and would be happy to help if you can make this happen.

edit: dont know any players though

 

[Slick53]

I think there is one that post on here regularly. I’m sure him and his buddy’s know the game

 

[hang-the-9]

Are there any accustat videos of 9 ball matches using roll out style rules?

There are some matches where they spotted balls after the break and shot from behind the line, but I don't think they had two pushout rules in those. I think the early 1990s matches had those rules.

 

[Slick53]

Played the old way in the 80’s and never got it all figured out. Took a long hiatus and start playing again and hear about Texas Express. Get talked into playing on APA team and my first match I ask , “ Can I Push” and what a bunch of funny looks I got, lol. Great thread btw

 

[hang-the-9]

Thanks, guys, after being lazy and misguided about how much a site search would return, and rightfully admonished, I did indeed easily find CJ’s video and watched it.

I only sorta understand the strategies of effective use of the push out, whether in today’s version of 9-ball after the break, or the old version of rollout as described by CJ. Having played 9-ball only in “ball count” APA league, I have had little need to learn how to leverage the push out. (Note: this is not a veiled request for advice. Some day I’ll be ready for “real” 9-ball but not right now. But feel free to discuss it! )

If you only play APA 9 ball that is not the actual game of 9 ball as played by anywhere else. Pushout is not very hard to explain or learn, since the other player has the option to give the shot back or take it, you just need to take that into account when doing a push out. So not so hard as to make they pass it to you and you mess up the shot but not so easy they can play an easy safe or pocket the ball and run out. Better than forcing players, many of them low level, to kick after the break like APA does.

If/when you start playing outside of APA the knowledge of the game will get there.

 

[pt109]

It would be interesting to set up and film a match between two opponents that used these rules in the distant past and perhaps have a voice over with the participants detailing what they were thinking at key points of the match. I am interested in this. I can remember reading about push out in various books like Buddy Hall's book but really never appreciated or understood the difference. Likely it would be significant and fun to play this variant. Anybody in Denver still around that played this way and still play at a high level? I can think of a few but not naming names. My son is a video editor. It might be cool to film something. Probably not enough mainstream interest but hey I can dream.

Measureman, who posts here, would know quite a bit about pushout I think.

 

[dquarasr]

If you only play APA 9 ball that is not the actual game of 9 ball as played by anywhere else. Pushout is not very hard to explain or learn, since the other player has the option to give the shot back or take it, you just need to take that into account when doing a push out. So not so hard as to make they pass it to you and you mess up the shot but not so easy they can play an easy safe or pocket the ball and run out. Better than forcing players, many of them low level, to kick after the break like APA does.

If/when you start playing outside of APA the knowledge of the game will get there.

Oh, I know the rules of push out in today’s 9-ball. It’s how to best use it that I have no experience. I know it’s vaguely to leave a shot your opponent might have difficulty with if he/she chooses to take it, and you have a solid plan for if it’s given back to you.

But having never had to perform a push out, I am clueless as to actually designing one. Maybe soon I’ll join a BCA 9-ball league where push outs and jump cues are allowed. Like CJ says, the game is the teacher.

 

[cjl0s]

Measureman, who posts here, would know quite a bit about pushout I think.

I met Measureman (Bruce) at Felt earlier this year. He is a very good shot and being from that era living in the East Coast you are probably right.

 

[pt109]

Oh, I know the rules of push out in today’s 9-ball. It’s how to best use it that I have no experience. I know it’s vaguely to leave a shot your opponent might have difficulty with if he/she chooses to take it, and you have a solid plan for if it’s given back to you.

But having never had to perform a push out, I am clueless as to actually designing one. Maybe soon I’ll join a BCA 9-ball league where push outs and jump cues are allowed. Like CJ says, the game is the teacher.

Without knowing anything of your opponent’s strengths or weaknesses……if you shot, you would be an underdog….….
….so you push to where it’s even money for you or your opponent.

 

[maha]

old way pushout. was any two fouls in a row was ball in hand. thats how it was played mostly on the east coast.

down south many played any two fouls by the same player in a row.

it made the game so a weaker player didnt sell out everytime he had a shot he couldnt make. so more action was in the poolroom.

 

[maha]

as far as players knocking others that is just what people do. they have to show how smart they are or what they might know.

if you are a gambler that likes to win you make it so all underrate your speed and you get action. anyone that plays full out gets no action as soon everyone knows exactly how you play and only offers a lock game. 90% of the reason most road players and poolroom players stay broke or make little.
the other 10% is they dont know when to quit when in a bad game.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

You’re missing a lot of push strategy…James Christopher used to push to fine cuts that weren’t bankable. Most players couldn’t hang with him on those shots…didn’t want to shoot it..
…but didn’t want him shooting it. So they would push back to a bank… now they’re both on one foul…and the first to foul is under the gun.
Why should the first to foul have the advantages?

At the Rack, I never saw ‘any two fouls’ played.
In serious action, The bar rule thinking often has to go.

In this situation James 'pushed' to a low percentage thin cut. He is on one foul. Now I have 4 choices: 1. I give the shot back to him (he is on 1 foul)... 2. I try the shot and make it (all fouls erased)... 3. I try the legal shot and miss, leaving him open (his foul is erased because I made a good hit))... He now shoots or pushes out. 4. I try a legal shot and miss but leave him tied up. He tries to make a good hit or pushes to me.

Is this how you remember it? I hope this is a good description for those who have never played it. It is the strategy and then the tactics that make this either exciting or excruciating.

 

[VarmintKong]

Nostalgia aside... proper decorum should likely have lead to a concession?

Really though? That’s not a nostalgic view? I guess people didn’t want to win that much back then. “Touche’ they say and tell your grandmother I said hello. Next time I might do my best, but for now I’ll just rest on my laurels.”

 

[pt109]

In this situation James 'pushed' to a low percentage thin cut. He is on one foul. Now I have 4 choices: 1. I give the shot back to him (he is on 1 foul)... 2. I try the shot and make it (all fouls erased)... 3. I try the legal shot and miss, leaving him open (his foul is erased because I made a good hit))... He now shoots or pushes out. 4. I try a legal shot and miss but leave him tied up. He tries to make a good hit or pushes to me.

Is this how you remember it? I hope this is a good description for those who have never played it. It is the strategy and then the tactics that make this either exciting or excruciating.

That is why I refused to play ‘any two fouls’.
Why should my good hit erase his foul?

 

[Biloxi Boy]

We always played 2 x 1. Never even heard of 2 x 2, but suspect that just the suggestion of such would have resulted in loud, derisive laughter and comments, plus questions regarding sanity, parentage, etc.

 

[straightline]

The first real pool I saw was two pros matching up on any two or by the same person. I forget what they decided on . They mostly ran out and that's what I remember. Within 2 years though most of the 9 ball we played had moved on to ball in hand rules with the push after the break.
Anyway, has anyone strung push/escapes in the same game to get out?

 

[garczar]

That is why I refused to play ‘any two fouls’.
Why should my good hit erase his foul?

we always played two fouls by same player. that 'take the shot,take the foul' rule was never played anywhere i ever went. now, once you accepted the shot and decided to shoot your opponents foul was gone. if you gave it back and he fouled then you got BIH.

 

[pt109]

We always played 2 x 1. Never even heard of 2 x 2, but suspect that just the suggestion of such would have resulted in loud, derisive laughter and comments, plus questions regarding sanity, parentage, etc.

You played a lot in bars?…I didn’t.

 

[Maxx]

we always played two fouls by same player. that 'take the shot,take the foul' rule was never played anywhere i ever went. now, once you accepted the shot and decided to shoot your opponents foul was gone. if you gave it back and he fouled then you got BIH.

That’s how we always played it too.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

You played a lot in bars?…I didn’t.

I preferred pool halls, but I played anywhere I found a table. If I was "going to play pool", I was headed to a pool hall. If I was out partying and there was a bar box, this was just another source of fun. The idea of playing serious pool on a bar box never crossed mind until I began playing in leagues.