question for league operators

[APA Operator]

HAHAHA, wait til you get raised after a loss....seen it happen.

It does seem strange, but that's how the math works sometimes. I'll give you a small example to demonstrate how that works.

Most handicap systems are based on your recent scores, meaning scores older than a certain age get dropped, or your most recent x scores, meaning once you've reached x scores, every time you add a score it replaces another one in the calculation. The first variation is only viable when everyone plays or is required to play a certain number of matches within a certain time frame. Otherwise, it would be possible to "start over" by not playing for a long enough period of time that all of your scores fall off. So we'll focus on the second variation.

In the example system, let's say x is 5 and use a simple handicap formula that is the average of your most recent five scores. Let's say those five scores are 2.7, 4.3, 5.4, 4.2, and 3.3 (most recent). The average is 3.98. Then you play another match and lose, shooting a 2.9 in the process. Now your five most recent scores are 4.3, 5.4, 4.2, 3.3, and 2.9. These scores average to 4.02 and you go up. In this type of system, if the score going on your record is better than the score coming off, you could go up, win or lose.

The opposite is also true. Let's say after going up you win a match, generating a score of 4.1. That score replaces the 4.3 in the calculation, and the average goes back to 3.98. You go down, even though you won and shot a score higher than your average.

 

[rrich1]

It does seem strange, but that's how the math works sometimes. I'll give you a small example to demonstrate how that works.

Most handicap systems are based on your recent scores, meaning scores older than a certain age get dropped, or your most recent x scores, meaning once you've reached x scores, every time you add a score it replaces another one in the calculation. The first variation is only viable when everyone plays or is required to play a certain number of matches within a certain time frame. Otherwise, it would be possible to "start over" by not playing for a long enough period of time that all of your scores fall off. So we'll focus on the second variation.

In the example system, let's say x is 5 and use a simple handicap formula that is the average of your most recent five scores. Let's say those five scores are 2.7, 4.3, 5.4, 4.2, and 3.3 (most recent). The average is 3.98. Then you play another match and lose, shooting a 2.9 in the process. Now your five most recent scores are 4.3, 5.4, 4.2, 3.3, and 2.9. These scores average to 4.02 and you go up. In this type of system, if the score going on your record is better than the score coming off, you could go up, win or lose.

The opposite is also true. Let's say after going up you win a match, generating a score of 4.1. That score replaces the 4.3 in the calculation, and the average goes back to 3.98. You go down, even though you won and shot a score higher than your average.

happened to me two weeks ago. I won in 9 ball for the first time in over a session, killing a 3 15-5 match points, and the following monday i dropped a level. oh well, helped me win this week. :thumbup:

 

[justadub]

The damnedest one was when I was lowered from a 4 to a 3 after a week that I didn't even play... Really. It was only after my first few weeks of playing, and I had gone 1-2 or 1-3 or something like that. So there was no history to speak of. We all kinda laughed.

 

[APA Operator]

The damnedest one was when I was lowered from a 4 to a 3 after a week that I didn't even play... Really. It was only after my first few weeks of playing, and I had gone 1-2 or 1-3 or something like that. So there was no history to speak of. We all kinda laughed.

While that technically **could** happen, there are one or two other things that are much more likely. It's possible that someone wrote the wrong player number on the score sheet and whoever entered the match didn't catch it, so you got credit for a match you didn't play. It's also possible that a match from a previous week was entered incorrectly (score flipped or typo or something) and was corrected the week you didn't play. A third possibility is that paperwork from a previous week came in late or was simply processed late, so it looked like you went down after not playing.

For people who are not new, the most common way this type of thing happens is that tournament scores get added to their record. Singles boards, singles regionals, tricups, local team championships, and nationals are all sources of scores, but there's a lag between when those matches are played and when the scores show up on your record for weekly play.

Then there's the Handicap Advisory Committee (HAC). They could decide to raise or lower (possible sometimes, but not always) a player at any time, which is how one technically could go up or down without playing. They normally wouldn't LOWER a new player, though.

 

[lorider]

when i started this thread i was venting frustration on the assumption that my handicap was raised based soley on the basis that i beat 2 very low skilled players quite handily in the last 2 weeks and i asked for opinions. due to all the upbeat responses and logical explanations i recieved i developed a more positive attitude about the sitiation. i thank all you fellow az ers for that. like the old saying goes i decided to just play the table not the player.
i would like to share my first day as a 5 with you. i play on 2 teams on sunday. 1st team i played a 6. the match went back and forth between us. a couple times he beat me bad and a couple times i beat him bad. it was like my old bar room days, i loved it. neither one of us had no slop shots,no defense shots and no time outs. it was all out offense. we both on the hill with him shooting at the 8 and he rattles the corner pocket leaving it hanging. i run my last 2 balls and pocket the 8. man was i happy !
2nd team i face a 6 again in 8 ball. gonna be a short description because i lost lol. this opponent plats on my 1st team so he knows how i play. he made 7 defensive shots during the match with 3 being made in 1 game. out of those 7 shots he managed to get ball in hand 2 times. in those 2 instances he was able to run out on me and win. he beat me 5-2. i might have won the match if not for those 2 times so i dont feel bad about how i played.
3rd match is 9 ball against a very weak 2. she is a nice lady in her 60s that loves pool. she can make a short straight in shot and thats all i can say good about her game. after i won the 2nd game i did something i never do. i asked my scorekeeper the score so far. she said 16-4 im up. i go back to break and i see the lady looking very dejected. i did the 2nd thing i never do. i slacked up but tried hard to not make it obvious. after 3rd game she has 8. 4th game i muck the 9. she has no straight shot and darn near impossible to cut for a player her level without scratching, rember im not making it obvious im slacking. she dont know what to do with it and she is looking towards her teamates. they all talking and laughing not paying attention to the game. she acts like she wants to call a time out but doesnt, guess she dont want to bother them. i wslk up and ask her if i can give some advice and she said sure. i tiol her to bank it in the corner. she said she didnt know how so i told how to line it up and where to hit it. after she made it she stood up grinning ear to ear and come up and gave me a high 5 . she said she had never made a shot like that before. i went on and won the game and afterwards told her whenever we both there early i would teach her some things. she said she would love that she was still grinning when she left the poolhall. dont feel good about slacking but im happy i made her day and possibly made a new friend. i would like to hear your opinions if what i did in this match is wrong. is this sandbagging ?

 

[APA Operator]

i would like to hear your opinions if what i did in this match is wrong. is this sandbagging ?

I'm glad you're feeling a little better about your promotion, but yes, unfortunately what you did was wrong. The coaching part was great, nothing wrong with that, but by lengthening the match you not only weakened the score you will get, you also strengthened the score she will get.

Look at it this way - maybe she needs to go down to a 1. What will be more likely to help with that, you letting up so she can get some points or you bearing down and beating her badly?

 

[fram6878]

By helping her you might have actually found yourself a new player for a future team also. That's not a bad thing. This past Sunday I coached my new 2speed (1speed in 9ball) to wins in both her matches. As a matter of fact it was a bank on the eight for the win lol. It felt good for both of us, and I would bet that she will call timeouts more often now too.

On the handicap issue, don't sweat it. Just play and have fun. If u go up then u go up.

 

[lorider]

I'm glad you're feeling a little better about your promotion, but yes, unfortunately what you did was wrong. The coaching part was great, nothing wrong with that, but by lengthening the match you not only weakened the score you will get, you also strengthened the score she will get.

Look at it this way - maybe she needs to go down to a 1. What will be more likely to help with that, you letting up so she can get some points or you bearing down and beating her badly?

thanks for the response operator. i know you are are right. like i said i didnt feel good about it. i know that one way to get better is to play better players but i also think it demoralizes some players to get blown away due to mismatching. example ; i know a girl that was a 2 that quit after playing a 7. she got 2 points playing 9 ballagainst. she said she joined to play and learn pool,said she didnt want to spend all her time and money to just rack all nite so some body could have some practice. i said what do you mean practice? she said pool is a game of 2 opponents playing against each other isnt it? i said yea. she said she wasnt playing,she was just racking and watching him run rack after rack. i told her it wont always be like that every week but i havent seen her since. i do have to say it happens a lot in my league. thats why this thread got started. one of the main things this league focuses on is attracting new players and it has deen quite adept at that. setting the guinness record for example. i do apa is the best league for beginnersjust wish i didnt see so much mismatching. i have overheard more than one conversation between a captain and a teamate. it goes like this : level 1 or 2 player says i dont want to play that 6 or 7 , captain says go on out there , you only gotta make 12 balls to his 65 or you only gotta win 1 game to his 6.
thats throwin his sheep to their wolf so he can save his 7 for their 5, his 5 for their 3 and so on. seen it a lot in my league.

 

[lorider]

By helping her you might have actually found yourself a new player for a future team also. That's not a bad thing. This past Sunday I coached my new 2speed (1speed in 9ball) to wins in both her matches. As a matter of fact it was a bank on the eight for the win lol. It felt good for both of us, and I would bet that she will call timeouts more often now too.

On the handicap issue, don't sweat it. Just play and have fun. If u go up then u go up.

thanks for the advice. played 2 6s since i went up. won1 lost 1. batting 500 aint too bad starting out. im not worried about spotting 4s a game or playing 5s even,its the 6s and 7s that has 1 less game to spot me that im sweatin lol.

 

[justadub]

i would like to hear your opinions if what i did in this match is wrong. is this sandbagging ?

Technically, it is a bit of sandbagging. In this instance I think it's very cool, and the greater good was served. You have reinforced that lady's belief in playing, and that she had a good time doing so, even while losing. She learned something, and so did you.

Now if you were to do that every time the opportunity arose, that would become a part of the problem, not a part of the solution. I don't expect that you'll be doing that very often in the future, based on my perceptions from your earlier posts.

The real test is when you look in the mirror. Is the person looking back at you satisfied with how it was handled? Thought so. :thumbup:

Congrats on how things have gone for you this past week. I'm quite glad for you, and hopeful that I may have a turnabout this week as well. Good stuff, lorider. Keep shooting well!

 

[Total_Chaos13]

i have overheard more than one conversation between a captain and a teamate. it goes like this : level 1 or 2 player says i dont want to play that 6 or 7 , captain says go on out there , you only gotta make 12 balls to his 65 or you only gotta win 1 game to his 6.
thats throwin his sheep to their wolf so he can save his 7 for their 5, his 5 for their 3 and so on. seen it a lot in my league.

I have been a captain for one of my dj teams for 3 years. We call that strategy. During regular season I will normally not throw off that bad unless its getting toward the end of session and players need games. Sometimes it happens though.

When playoffs, cities and the cups come around it's something you got to think about. My team will get some table time on the few days leading up to any important match, and that allows be to see who is shooting good and who is not. I'm very up front with my team, when it comes to playoffs, cities and the cups the best 5 will play, no question.

If we know the other team we are playing, I have a 2 that i will throw on a weak 4-5-6-7 in a heartbeat. One of my female 2's played 2 balls better against higher handicaps, put her on a 3 or under and its a coin flip, put her on a 4, 5, 6, 7 she will win that match 75% of the time, and when she loses its never a blowout. She makes the simple shots. She takes advantage of every mistake the other player makes and will get a few balls here and there on each mistake and before you know it she has here 19 and won the match. This allows our other players to match up better with the other team.

 

[justadub]

I have been a captain for one of my dj teams for 3 years. We call that strategy. During regular season I will normally not throw off that bad unless its getting toward the end of session and players need games. Sometimes it happens though.

When playoffs, cities and the cups come around it's something you got to think about. My team will get some table time on the few days leading up to any important match, and that allows be to see who is shooting good and who is not. I'm very up front with my team, when it comes to playoffs, cities and the cups the best 5 will play, no question.

If we know the other team we are playing, I have a 2 that i will throw on a weak 4-5-6-7 in a heartbeat. One of my female 2's played 2 balls better against higher handicaps, put her on a 3 or under and its a coin flip, put her on a 4, 5, 6, 7 she will win that match 75% of the time, and when she loses its never a blowout. She makes the simple shots. She takes advantage of every mistake the other player makes and will get a few balls here and there on each mistake and before you know it she has here 19 and won the match. This allows our other players to match up better with the other team.

I agree with pretty much all of that. What I *think* lorider is talking about are the new players, the ones that don't know what's going on, getting fed to the lions for the matchup sake. When they're new, early in the session, and get set up to be smoked it has to be discouraging.

I do understand and agree that when it gets down to it, strategy is important and players gotta play who they gotta play. Hopefully by that time the newer players have some games under their belts and understand more about whats happening, and why. It's certainly appropriate to play them against tougher opponents come crunch time, if that strategy will help the team win.

We have an SL2 on our team that hasn't gotten much of a chance, and our captain keeps intending to throw her up against 5's or 6's. I don't care for it much, this early in the session. But I'm not the one making the decisions, or having the responsibility, either. That's why I was impressed with loriders actions. The lady he played is MUCH more likely to stick around now, as a result of having played someone who took the time to help her out.

 

[Total_Chaos13]

I agree with pretty much all of that. What I *think* lorider is talking about are the new players, the ones that don't know what's going on, getting fed to the lions for the matchup sake. When they're new, early in the session, and get set up to be smoked it has to be discouraging.

I do understand and agree that when it gets down to it, strategy is important and players gotta play who they gotta play. Hopefully by that time the newer players have some games under their belts and understand more about whats happening, and why. It's certainly appropriate to play them against tougher opponents come crunch time, if that strategy will help the team win.

We have an SL2 on our team that hasn't gotten much of a chance, and our captain keeps intending to throw her up against 5's or 6's. I don't care for it much, this early in the session. But I'm not the one making the decisions, or having the responsibility, either. That's why I was impressed with loriders actions. The lady he played is MUCH more likely to stick around now, as a result of having played someone who took the time to help her out.

Totally agree. IMHO i think what loriders did is great. First of all there isn't a person on this board that say they haven't eased up on a lesser opponent. I played a new player a few years ago. The kid was 18 and just joined his mom and dads team, i was friends with his dad but had never met the kid. He was a 2 all day long in 9 ball, maybe even that fathom male 1 we hear about. Kid had never picked up a cue in his life. I came out the gate strong and beat the kid 31-3, 20-0 him his very first match. The kid quit the team the same night he joined. For him that wasn't fun. I felt horrible about that match for well over a month. I told myself that I would never do that to a new player during the meaningless regular season again. Playoffs, the cups, cities everything goes but not during regular session. The kid just wanted to come out and spend some time with his parents on a Tuesday night. To this day every time I see his dad i ask him if he as tried to pick the sport back up and he says no.

I also think its a great show of sportsmanship on his part to help her even though it has a direct impact on his game.

 

[lorider]

thank you just a dub and total chaos 13 for understanding my position. yes i was refering to beginers. i know i could have beat her just like chaos did to that kid he was refering to. i beat 2 players like that a few weeks ago and as a result i went up a level and i started this thread about it. chaos you stated in your post that you would never beat another new player again, how do you propose to do that without putting yourself in the position i was in ?
again thank both of you for your kind responses.

 

[Banks]

I try to not let up, cuz things can just as easily turn the other way and the next thing you know you're a ball away from a loss.

As for the regionals.. go and give em hell. I was a 5 for a few months before I did a qualifier.. went up to a 6(8b) the following week.. still made it to Vegas in the higher bracket. Actually did pretty well in Vegas, falling short of the money in my last match. Played like a dog's arse last year in Vegas, though.. ugh. This weekend is regionals again out here.. here we go again.