Question for the tourney directors out there

Who won the match?

  • Player A

    Votes: 20 80.0%

  • Player B

    Votes: 5 20.0%

  • Neither player

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .
azhousepro

azhousepro

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John Ditoro described an interesting situation to me the other day and we thought it would be a great question for the board.

Player A was playing Player B in a Florida Men's Pro Tour event. The winner of this match would be in the cash and the score is hill-hill.

Player A was on two fouls and Player B notified him of this. Player A studied the shot for at least five minutes and then took a shot at it. He fouled (now he has three fouled and lost). Player B takes ball in hand and starts running the remaining balls. He does not tell Player A that he has lost the game and match.

Player B runs down to the 9-ball which he jars in the pocket.

Player A makes the 9-ball and reports that he has won the match.

Neither player appeared to have remembered that Player A had been on three fouls.

15 or 20 minutes later, a spectator tells Player B that Player A had three fouled and Player B goes back to the tournament director and says that he should have won the match.

Now the question is, Who won the match?

Mike
 
You sleep it you lose it. If he told the guy he was on 2, then fails to realize that the game was over............that is his fault. Tough call to make, but player B should have been paying attention lol!
 
Laugher

Both players should feel lucky to be able to hold a cue, let alone play with one or even be playing in a PRO Event.

The GAME was over after the 3rd foul.

Player B wins. Two wrongs don't cancel a 'right'

TD has the right to correct mistaken match reports.
 
It's called: You snooze, you lose.

If Player B neglected to call the foul before Player A shoots the next shot, it is a moot point.

ManlyShot
 
Player A wins the match. Player B informed him of the two fouls but chose not to take the game on the third. He chose to shoot which cancels out the three fould rule.
 
If player B told player A that he "was on 2" then as soon as player A missed the shot the game was over. It matters not what happened after that. Player B was probably just practicing for the next match. LOL

If player B never told player A that he "was on 2" before player A took his shot then by rules player A did not 3 foul. But at that time Player B could have shot and then told Player A that he was "on 2", which he was.

This I learned in one of my first few tournaments.

The remedy to this should be to eliminate the 3 foul rule. Do you notice how few times you see it done on TV? I just don't think the fans like that rule and the Pros on TV are smart enough to realize that so they don't do it.

Jake
 
Its nice how much time player A took to shoot!!!

Think maybe that had a reason for B forgetting? But it still doesn't mean player A wasn't on 2 fouls (there's no statute of limitations on fouls that I know of).

Hard to believe people would pick player A but I guess if you're a loser at heart you would want to win any way you can.

Why not just wait a little bit after you lose a match, then walk over and say HEY! I won that match, I just went to the bathroom before I came to report it..........now what? Same stinkin kind of bullshit here.

So, ABSOLUTELY you change it and player B wins. You have to balls to do the right thing sometimes.

Steve
 
IMO, after player A fouled the 3rd consecutive time, player B should NOT have taken another shot, until both players were aware of the match being over, (shaking hands, saying good match, etc). But, since player B chose to continue shooting without actually acknowledging the match was finished, he's at fault and player A deserves the match after pocketing the 9 ball. On the other hand, player A should have shown a little sportsmanship and said something like, "there's no need to shoot again, I 3 fouled and lost." As a tournament director in this situation I would have given player A the win, since player B chose to continue shooting, which in turn meant the game wasn't over.
Thanks and great question!
Zim
 
Makes no difference if Player "B" shot after the 3rd foul ... ( the game was already completed when the 3rd foul occurred ) Player "A" was notified and .. as described in post: "acknowledged" that he was on 2 fouls .. and once the 3rd foul was made .. the game was over !! and any competant T.D. would make the call .. Game over after 3rd foul and all play thereafer has no bearing on outcome !!
Remember ... there are many times in games where fouls are "snoozed" ... and ignored .. but not when both players have already "acknowledged" that one of the players is on "2" and there is "then" an automatic assumtion by both (as all players who participate in tournament play certainly (SHOULD) understand the meaning of "the 3 foul rule applies") (in 9 ball rules) that another foul will result in a loss of game !!!
In the situation described .. Player "A" shot again at the end to pocket the 9 ball ... is this the actions of a player who already knows they lost moments before when they 3 fouled .. and acknowledged that he was on 2 fouls ... ???? or the actions of a player trying to get away with something knowing that he had already lost !!??
Regardless of who pointed this error out to the T.D. .. the correct call is player who made 3rd foul "LOST" game at that juncture ..
PLAYER "B" won match .... and there can be no other legitimate outcome if T.D. makes determination based on facts of the game/fouls,etc.
Change the chart .. Player "B" advances .. and keep an eye on Player "A" in future matches as he may be attempting to "pull the wool" again sometime in future.
John McChesney
Texas Express
 
If player A had the stones & was honest, he would have acknowledged that the match was over! What was the official ruling in the tourney? OR was that a hypothetical question?

Peace,
Joe Koontz
 
You can't make assumptions that one or both parties know what happens on the next foul shot. That's why there are rules. What does the "RULE" say if you commit your third foul and the person does not get called on it? (I'm asking becuase I do not know which rules they are playing by.). If you are stand up and you know you just made a third foul, you should call yourself on it! However, if the rule states you have to be called before the next shot is taken then player A wins, but if the rules do not stipulate a time limit (just that 3 fouls is a loss) then B wins. It's that simple. if it is not then the rules need to be cleared up
 
With no referrees, players control their match. Since player B opted to continue then the game continues. Seems to me that a Pro event, a player would understand what 3 foul is if he calls it when on 2. Game over.

I think this is similiar to players that are playing, and a player doesnt mark his point. After the rack continues, can you go and remark it once you realized you missed it?

I think player A wins the game, and player B learns a lesson.
 
With no referrees, players control their match. Since player B opted to continue then the game continues. Seems to me that a Pro event, a player would understand what 3 foul is if he calls it when on 2. Game over.

I think this is similiar to players that are playing, and a player doesnt mark his point. After the rack continues, can you go and remark it once you realized you missed it?

I think player A wins the game, and player B learns a lesson.
 
Once Player "B" continued play after Player "A" 3 fouled, he/she relinquished the right to call a 3 foul win.

It's unfortunate for Player "B" that he forgot that Player "A" three fouled. Player "B" should have stayed awake.
 
it is inconceivable that BOTH players were aware that one was on 2,,,and one shot later, they BOTH forgot!!

i think player A knew the moment he fouled, but saw that player B was continuing on, and wasn't sportsman enough say anything. so he watched in silenced and snatched the opportunity when B missed.
 
Per Texas Express Rules:

Section 7: Loss of Game - Concession - Loss of Match

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7.1: Three Consecutive Fouls

Three fouls in a row by the same player in a single game results in a win for his or her opponent. The opponent must warn the player when he or she has fouled twice, and the player must acknowledge the warning. If the opponent has not warned the player and received acknowledgement for the two fouls, and the player fouls a third time, then the player will begin his or her next inning in the same game with two fouls.
__________________________________________

AZHousepro asked in the original post "Questions for Tourney Directors out there"
Based on the fact that I am recognized as an "official" T.D.; and the fact that I and others within our group authored the T.E. 9 Ball Rules; and the fact that the event was played under either:
T.E. Rules, BCA Rules or Pro Express Rules ( whereby all 3 utilize the basic same 3 foul rule format ); I respectfully submit that the vast majority of those thus far who have posted and feel because player "B" continued play, etc. after the 3rd foul was made by player "A" that they "B" have given up the right for the right call .. are wrong .. simply do not understand the rule and/or are not tournament directors and/or that this rules can be snoozed in tournament play ( IT CAN NOT )!!!
As stated in rules above ... there is NO requirement for the 3rd foul to be acknowledged peroid .. It is an AUTOMATIC win when the player makes the 3rd foul !!! regardless of what transpired on the table thereafter !!!
As described in the original match description .. it sounds if player "A" was on the "stall" attempting to make a good hit to avoid the 3rd foul .. then due to his lack of sportsmanship or CON ... tried to get the win ... ( he knew he had LOST )
Again .. as in my first post .. the T.D. would have the right and duty to correct the match by "any means necessary" which would include investigation into any audience observance; of other players; of the players involved and make the final determination .. and by the way .. player "A" hung himself when he ( as described in original post ) acknowledged that he was on "2" ... meaning that he and his opponent "fully understood" that a 3rd foul would result in a loss...
Game over when 3rd foul happened .. period !!!
John McChesney
Texas Express
 
I've only had this happen once in five years as TD and it was in the weekly $10 entry 9-ball tournament. I ruled that player 'A' lost the match the moment he made his 3rd foul (after being notified that he was on two). I had two unhappy players and I gave them the option of re-playing the final game. They both chose to re-play the game. Player B won, anyway. It caused a stir among all the players, but they ALL know that in the future, the player that commits three consecutive fouls is the Loser (and NO re=playing the game).
Of course, I may be wrong, but the TD has to run the tournament and not let the tournament run him (or her).. imo
 
John McChesney

As stated in rules above ... there is NO requirement for the 3rd foul to be acknowledged peroid .. It is an AUTOMATIC win when the player makes the 3rd foul !!! regardless of what transpired on the table thereafter !!!
Click to expand...

Like I said in a previous post,

TWO wrongs don't cancel a 'Right"

Thanks John, for taking the time to set this Really RIGHT.

Texas Express rules are used in more tournament formats that I have run or played in, than anyother.

Reffereed or NOT, the 3 foul rule only has one outcome.. LOSS of GAME.
 
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