Questionable Hit Call at SBE - What can I do?

mapman72

mapman72

New member
Like my father used to tell me, "every good pool player has a hundred excuses for why they lost." Well, I only have one for my match. The shot in question was a kick shot for my opponent with the four ball and the six ball frozen near the side rail. I called the tournament director over to watch the hit. The shot came in and I couldn't believe my eyes because my opponent miscalculated and came in and hit the six ball first. This was hill/hill, third set. As I patiently waited to hear the TD make the "foul" call, I didn't hear anything. When I looked over to him, he said, "good hit". I made this weird face and said, "what?" He said, "he hit the 4 first." I was happy to get a chance at the table and didn't argue the call too much but I was sure he blew it. My shot on the 4 ball was a tough one and I missed it, giving my opponent another chance at the table. I'm sure that I was getting out if I got that ball in hand but I didn't. After the match, I was really disappointed because later in the game, I scratched on the 7 ball and lost the match. The first thing my family and friends said when I talked to them was "that was a bad hit". Someone even said that the guy's own brother said it was a bad hit.

So what recourse is there if the TD totally screws up a hit call in a critical match? I mean, if one person out of the 25 watching it gets the call wrong, it only sucks if that one person is the only one who has a say. What should I have done there? I didn't want to argue and I honestly felt like it wouldn't do any good. By the way, my opponent played really well and I'm not taking anything away from him. It just sucks to think that I lost out on $400+ because of an incorrect ruling.
 
By the way, I know the answer to this question is "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING"! But I wanted to vent. Did anyone see this match?
 
mapman72 said:
By the way, I know the answer to this question is "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING"! But I wanted to vent. Did anyone see this match?
Click to expand...

mapman,

When and where did this happen? Upstairs/downstairs?

Barbara
 
This happened upstairs, table 130 something? Maybe 131 or 134. Pam Treadway was waiting for our table so she could play her first round match in the womens. My opponent took a very long time between shots and our match went well over two hours.
 
mapman72 said:
By the way, I know the answer to this question is "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING"! But I wanted to vent. Did anyone see this match?
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It's not absolutely nothing. You can write down more or less what you did here and send it to the TD. You can also suggest that he get training in making calls on close hits. You can also send your letter to the promoter if that's different from the TD. Will it change anything? Maybe not.
 
I didn't see your match, Joey but I think I knew who you played. I'm guessing it was a clean cut, middle aged guy with light brown hair and tall. I watched him beat Pete Calabrese on the table next to me in my second round match and if I got by you, I was thinking I may have to play him. He seemed like a solid player.

Unfortunately, you know the answer to your rhetorical question. It might not make you feel better, but the "sometimes you're the bug/sometimes windshield analogy comes to mind..."


Eric >usually the bug
 
Well I'm sure I'm not playing the tourny's that you guys are talking about, but after many years in a pool hall, and running many a tourny I'll give you my .02.. He's call the TD for a reason. "Director" means final call, whether it be right/wrong/ or indifferent.

There's many cases in professional sports of all kinds where "bad calls" are made. Since the invention of the video camera, many of those bad calls are now reversed (such as "challenges" in the NFL) ultimately though before camera's (which is where your at in pool) it's the ref's or in this case the TD's call.

DJ
 
ouch...sorry to hear about that. I always thought that instant replay would be a nice feature for judging hits...but it's too impractical. [People routinely get completely screwed because of bad calls though. I saw one last week where the TD watched the hit...it was night/day obvious it was a bad hit. also you could tell because the cb caromed and sent another ball an impossible direction. oh well what can you do right
 
Eric. said:
I didn't see your match, Joey but I think I knew who you played. I'm guessing it was a clean cut, middle aged guy with light brown hair and tall. I watched him beat Pete Calabrese on the table next to me in my second round match and if I got by you, I was thinking I may have to play him. He seemed like a solid player.

Unfortunately, you know the answer to your rhetorical question. It might not make you feel better, but the "sometimes you're the bug/sometimes windshield analogy comes to mind..."


Eric >usually the bug
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Yeah, that's the guy Eric. He was the one playing next to you and I against Bob G. The guy played good and steady and SLOW. He was from Cleveland. Nice guy but I don't think he was aware of how long he took between each and every shot. It didn't matter if he was straight in or playing a crucial position shot, he took at least a minute to look at it. I felt really bad for Pam T. and the other girl that were waiting for our match to finish. At one point, hill/hill, the guy stops to tell me a story for a couple minutes with the girls sitting right there waiting. All in all, nice guy, good shot, and I hope to get another shot at him in the future. Does anyone know that TDs name? He was the one with the microphone all weekend. If I'm going to make a formal complaint (still not sure if I will), I'd like to have his name.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It's not absolutely nothing. You can write down more or less what you did here and send it to the TD. You can also suggest that he get training in making calls on close hits. You can also send your letter to the promoter if that's different from the TD. Will it change anything? Maybe not.
Click to expand...

It's interesting that the TD made no verbal call until the nonshooter made eyecontact, and then he said "good hit." This sounds like it may have been an easy call to make (others seem clear that the call was straightforward), and for some reason the TD didn't see it. Maybe he was positioned wrong. Who knows...

So I'm curious Bob. As a referee's referee or the mother of all referees or whatever you are, what do you recommend a referee or TD do in the following situation. You're called over during a hill-hill match with a number of spectators. You're positioned correctly to watch a hit like that above. You know how to judge the hit, etc. But for some reason, your attention gets interupted at the last moment and you really have no clue whether it was a good hit. Perhaps a beautiful woman walked by or you had a petit mal seizure or both.

I understand that a reasonable thing to do LATER is to rub your nose with sandpaper and then dip it in lemon juice. But what is the right thing to do right then?

A. Confess you didn't see it and walk away.

B. Shrug your shoulders and wait for someone else to talk.

C. Confess you didn't see it and consult one or both of the players.

D. Confess you didn't see it and consult the crowd.

E. Flip a coin in your head and make an affirmative call to one side or the other.

F. Make an affirmative call in favor of the shooter.

G. Other.

If you choose B, or C, or D, then please address what you do if the consultants disagree.

mike page
fargo
 
mikepage said:
(fail to see the shot you're supposed to be watching.)

I understand that a reasonable thing to do LATER is to rub your nose with sandpaper and then dip it in lemon juice. But what is the right thing to do right then?

...
C. Confess you didn't see it and consult one or both of the players.

D. Confess you didn't see it and consult the crowd.

...
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I guess these two. If the players agree about the shot, you can leave. If they don't, and there's someone in the crowd that's trustworthy, you can ask them.

I'm reminded of the time I was playing in the BCA Nationals and I had a tough 2-rail kick to hit the object ball. The ref was out of position to see the shot but called the foul anyway. (He was supposed to be watching two tables.) My opponent saw the good hit, but there was no way he was going to speak up, being of the "screw unto others before others screw unto you" mindset. There was an off-duty ref in the stands who saw the shot, but he wasn't consulted. I think he should have been.
 
Fouls and common sense

Before their were referees, fouls were called by the nonshooting player, and if in disagreement with the shooter, they hacked out a solution. Now, players can commit OBVIOUS fouls, recognized by their opponent, and argue it is NOT A FOUL because a referee didn't watch the shot. You have to use some common sense and be fair about YOUR shooting and your opponents shooting.

And, MANY TIMES, people running smaller tournaments ARE NOT trained or qualified to be a referee, just because you are running a tournament DOES NOT mean you have enough POOL KNOWLEDGE to be a referee. All kinds of people get designated to run a tournament in various Pool rooms.

I have beeen asked to consult on calls by players AND REFEREES, and have either verified the call, or to disprove the call by the very physics of the situation. Many people are not aware of the scientific ways to determine if a hit is good or not.

IF I was a 100% percent certain a wrong call was made, I would stop the match, voice a complaint, get names of spectators that saw the hit, and
file my complaint to whatever higher power there might be.

I must say though, that usually in bigger tournaments, refereed by certified referees, their calls are correct almost all of the time. Just like a coach can file a complaint regarding a call in a basketball game, a pool
player should be able to file a complaint on a bad call on the table.
 
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