Questions about tournaments and green fees.

[West Point 1987]

All I care about is the entry fee/tour fee and payouts. I get to play for hours against top notch competition...if I can get in the cash (and hopefully at least break even), then I'm very happy; if not, it was money well spent. You factor in your expenses and entry fee, subtract the table time costs you would have paid to play that long and figure out what you need to place to break even...and decide for yourself whether it's worth your time or not. No tournament will run itself, and without a venue there's no tournament at all. I have no interest in what the TD or room owner gets wetting their beak. That's the grease that gets the tournament to happen in the first place. If you insist on getting in the middle of that, the more likely the tournament will never happen, and you'll freeze yourself out of action in the big picture, with fewer tournaments and lower payouts overall.

If you have the time, go over to AZBilliards main website and start pulling top 50 players (under search player) and take a gander at what a pro makes per year on tournament purses...with few exceptions, it won't pay the light bill, let alone the rent.

 

[ironman]

I can't wait for the day when pool goes back to being like it was or pool players would grow a set of balls and quit being pool pussies that just take it in the shorts and like it when they know they're getting . .. That will never happen because they're all ducks anyway. Green fees, being filmed, jerked around, favoritism in many different ways they don't even know or could even think of. There's more business done at a tournaments akin to a legal form of dumping(all the players money into whoevers pocket suits them). Are TD's really that important? How the hell hard is it too write names on a chart or make a call. Ask Gay Heffer..talk about your opaque business model . .and behind the scenes business. Him and the wincard getting run out of Reno. Cons are running the show from the top to the bottom. The average pool player just thinks of bragging rights instead of money. Entertainment baby!
No need for replies..just think about it in your spare time. My posts are strictly for entertainment value without all the business attached unlike tournaments ..
Canwin

Why think about it?? Ain't worth the time!!

 

[Snapshot9]

Green fees

There is a tournament coming up on Dec. 4th here that is a ranking tournament. We are in process here in town to rank players. We have about 10 players in tier 1 that are the best, and about 30 players that are in tier 2. This tournament is for tier 2 players to rank them.

It will be a crazy board tournament with 12 entries. Each player will play each of the other players a race to 5 9 ball. Then these players will be ranked by number of wins over games played. The players would then be ranked by the highest percentage descending to the lowest.

I am in tier 2, and plan to play in this tournament. The entry fee is $30 plus $20 for green fees. The tables are Valley bar tables that are normally .50 a game. So far, only 7 players are signed up, but I will pay my money this weekend, and be the 8th player.

My question is: If the tournament does not fill with tier 2 players, and 8 is all we get, should the room owner reduce the green fee of $20 some, like say down to $15?

The room owner plans to have a ranking tournament once a month (first Sunday in the month). We also have challenge matches played on Saturday night, mostly on a big table, but can be played on a bar table.
$100 a set, play 5 sets, race to 7 9 ball, and the room owner pays the winner an extra $100. The room owner's wife racks for the challengers. The room owner keeps the official score, and posts the results on Facebook. The winner of the challenge match gets ranked above the loser. The rankings will end up similiar to how its done in boxing.

2 Challenge matches have been played, with each of them ending up 3-2 on the sets. The matches are also being filmed, and will end up on youtube with highlights of the match. Quite a bit of 'trash talking' takes place on Facebook in our private group called 'Wichita Pool Players' which has over 200 members. The first challenge match had about 50 spectators watching the match. There are 6 more challenge matches currently scheduled through about the end of January.

 

[canwin]

Sorry, not entertained, but disappointed that you hold TDs and organizers in such low regard. Perhaps you had bad dealings in the past, sorry about your experiences if that is indeed the case.

Feel free to reply. My posts are hopefully for informational value, without all the inaccurate generalizations attached.

Sorry, not entertained, but disappointed that you hold TDs and organizers in such low regard. Perhaps you had bad dealings in the past, sorry about your experiences if that is indeed the case.

Feel free to reply. My posts are hopefully for informational value, without all the inaccurate generalizations attached.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want something you've never had, you must do something you've never done.

If you think pool in the states will ever have more sponsors and more money from the history of the way tournaments have been run in a back room mentality, that's a senario you'll never see as it would have happened already. More money has been run off in the pool tournament scene by TD's and their pals betting the line than you know. My experiences have influenced my opinion. Example of jerked around: Chart changes and a forfeits by 1 minute. Example of favoritism: Favorable table assignments and laxed inforcement of time to show up to scheduled matches. TD can't be found (maybe giving players drugs a chance to kick in) or special treament that can be in many forms.Love that don'tcha.
Whole new world my . . same ol world but with more ways to exploit players. Is there a rule that says if you don't want to be filmed then you can't play? I have an analogy that some TD's and promoters are like the roadman comin to rob the locals but you don't have enough experience to know it. You talk about the art of the hustle is dying but you do don't know anything about the art of hustling except for your inaccurate generalization about it. I hope you find this educational. Please share with me what the art of hustling is.. I love a good conversation. .
Canwin

 

[DGHustles]

I can see both sides of this issue and I wrestled with this very topic myself. I agree with DG Hustles that everyone likes transparency...including me. However, I can tell you from personal experience that transparency can sometimes be detrimental to our sport because of a few bad apples. For some strange reason, many pool players believe that neither the pool room nor the TD should profit one dime and ALL proceeds should go to the players.

I read a thread once where a TD announced a $100 entry fee tournament, no money added, with a max of 64 players. When the payouts were added up, it totaled $6,000. In this case, the TD was retaining $400 while the room was allowing uninhibited access to the pool tables all weekend in exchange for the "hope" of increased food and beverage sales. Numerous players quickly did the math and jumped on the forum to criticize the TD. They actually expected the TD to travel to the room, pay for a hotel, provide all of the many necessities that a tournament requires, and spend all weekend running it...for nothing. Then, rather than purchasing food and beverage at the room, they wait for a break in the action and go down the street to McDonalds just to save a couple of bucks. Many players actually demand this non-compensation from pool rooms and TDs and will quickly spread their logic (or non-logic in my opinion) to thousands of people instantly over the web. With these unrealistic expectations and demands, in the end, there will be no tournaments...and we all lose.

Believe me when I say that there is nothing lucrative about running pool tournaments! However, in order to prevent chaos started by people who don't have a clue about the various expenses of running a tournament (especially if you are streaming), I believe it is sometimes best to keep that information proprietary and let the history of payouts from a TD speak for itself. No matter what the circumstances, some people will use whatever information you provide to try and bring you down. Just a perspective that I thought I would share.

I agree completely Ozzy. I think that most players looking to travel and actually make money off small regional tours are keeping an eye out for that, as I am sure you know. If someone is playing pool for a living, if they have any sense at all they should be looking at the payouts in comparison money in entries. If a player is concerned they can always ask the TD. If the TD cares about the members and players of their tournament then that info should be disclosed, at that point.

 

[Red Shoes]

"Green Fees" should not be a mystery. When I run $50 entry fee (GREEN FEE INCLUDED), $500 added money event (BASED ON A FULL FIELD)....$10 of the $50 entry fee is a GREEN FEE so...$40 goes directly into the prize fund. The $500 added (BASED ON A FULL FIELD) is just that....we prorate the added money related to percentage. If the field is FULL... (which is 32 players) then the FULL $500 is added, "IF" we get 16....then $250 is added etc..etc.. Sooooo....If we have a 16 player field the payouts money and payouts are as follows....16 players, $50 entry fee ($10 of which is GREEN FEE) so $40 of the $50 goes into the prize fund....16x$40=$640 + $250 added money=$890. I would normally pay one quarter (25%) of the field so I am paying 4 places (based on 16 players) ...the payouts look like this 1st..$450, 2nd..$225, 3rd..$130 4th..$85. That equals $890....once in a while I might (depending on the type of tournament) weight 1st place heavier to get it up to $500. If I do that 2nd 3rd & 4th loose a small amount of their payout to get 1st from $450 to $500.....BUT the $890 would still be there (PAID OUT) regardless. I also "post" the payouts BEFORE the conclusion of the first round of play....so people don't think I'm "jockinging" the money for one of my buddies. Now If you enter a tournament that states on the flyer $50 entry fee (GREEN FEE INCLUDED), $500 added (BASED ON A FULL FIELD)....and it gets 16 players...If you expect a payout of $1300 ($50 x 16=$800 + $500 added money) then you are WRONG (so don't go running around *****in' that the money is wrong and the room STEALING)....Just go up to the T/D and ask how they came up with the payouts they did? I'm sure they will walk you through their math.

 

[inside_english]

Sorry, not entertained, but disappointed that you hold TDs and organizers in such low regard. Perhaps you had bad dealings in the past, sorry about your experiences if that is indeed the case.

Feel free to reply. My posts are hopefully for informational value, without all the inaccurate generalizations attached.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want something you've never had, you must do something you've never done.

If you think pool in the states will ever have more sponsors and more money from the history of the way tournaments have been run in a back room mentality, that's a senario you'll never see as it would have happened already. More money has been run off in the pool tournament scene by TD's and their pals betting the line than you know. My experiences have influenced my opinion. Example of jerked around: Chart changes and a forfeits by 1 minute. Example of favoritism: Favorable table assignments and laxed inforcement of time to show up to scheduled matches. TD can't be found (maybe giving players drugs a chance to kick in) or special treament that can be in many forms.Love that don'tcha.
Whole new world my . . same ol world but with more ways to exploit players. Is there a rule that says if you don't want to be filmed then you can't play? I have an analogy that some TD's and promoters are like the roadman comin to rob the locals but you don't have enough experience to know it. You talk about the art of the hustle is dying but you do don't know anything about the art of hustling except for your inaccurate generalization about it. I hope you find this educational. Please share with me what the art of hustling is.. I love a good conversation. .
Canwin

I love a good conversation as well. It would seem we are both guilty of making generalizations.

That being said, given your experiences, I don't need to educate you about the art of the hustle. You know as well as I that hustling (lying/cheating) takes on many forms.

I agree that there ARE crooked TDs, room-owners etc.
No one is disputing that, but it seems to me that you wanted to make a blanket statement about all tournaments, and I felt the need to respond.

The "Gay Heffer" comment was a little much, but maybe I am a pu$$y too, lol

 

[canwin]

I love a good conversation as well. It would seem we are both guilty of making generalizations.

That being said, given your experiences, I don't need to educate you about the art of the hustle. You know as well as I that hustling (lying/cheating) takes on many forms.

I agree that there ARE crooked TDs, room-owners etc.
No one is disputing that, but it seems to me that you wanted to make a blanket statement about all tournaments, and I felt the need to respond.

The "Gay Heffer" comment was a little much, but maybe I am a pu$$y too, lol

My opinions are never based on blanket statements as there are so many senarios. There are decent TD's and promoters and there are ones who people admit take way too much/do too much business to keep their comfy little life style. I wouldn't mind being comped for week long events and being in a position of power that lends itself to behind the scenes business/working the draw and times, being lax with the rules, colluding in on matches, working with someone taking bets, etc. but because it is so camoflauged(sp?) the unexperienced will never know it. .
Hustling does take on many forms(what you said). Just look at things that are transparent. Let's just start with a simple thing as it ought to be, the draw and go from there. .
I like to inject comedy relief. Jay's name lends itself to my comment and what I think of him based on my experiences and knowledge.
Your not a pu$$y either.. its poolpu$$y lol
There's good and bad in everything. You hear all the time about people in the news who are in a position of authority who abuse it. If there was that kind of scrutiny in the pool world, you see some let go just as they do in the real world. . Everything you call them on in the pool world, they'll have an answer for..
I think of pool like I do hotdog eating. Millions of people eat hotdogs but a small amount do it for a living. It's a small world in the US for playing nothing but pro tournaments (they've got it covered, smothered,scattered and smattered) It's an awful house of cons. .as always
Canwin

 

[Mickey Qualls]

The local tournaments in this area are really good about listing the entry and green fees separately. This is as it should be, IMHO. Tournaments need to be as transparent as possible with all monies involved.

Lisa

I agree...

With the way the billiard community is looked upon today, thanks in part to its portrayal in TV and movies, I think that TDs and promoters need to be transparent and forthcoming about what money goes where. The TD can choose to keep whatever he feels he needs to make a tournament worth his time, in the way of greens fees and such. That dollar amount isn't my call to make.
That being said, if he's taking too much, the players won't show. And the TD will either adjust his take, or won't have any more tournaments.

Poolplayers aren't completely stupid, most of us can do the math. There's always a couple of guys at every tourney standing in front of the chart, counting how many entries and checking the numbers against the payouts.
And at least a few more doing it without making a spectacle of it.

If anything, posting what money goes where gives the TD more credibility.

Just my $.02...