Quick question re distance from the cue ball at address

[justadub]

Hiya gang. Been a while since I've spent much time on the site, beyond the casual drive by, I got a little time this morning, and thought I might ask a question.

I have a player on my team that I'm trying to help. She's been doing a pretty good job improving over the last year, without any concentrated "instruction". She watches, she listens, she asks questions, she's pretty bright. It's been fun seeing her "get" stuff, even for me in my "only moderately better" experience.

The one thing that jumps out at me when she's playing is the distance between the tip of her cue and the cue ball at address. It seems to be at least an inch away, likely a bit more (its not like I'm gonna run up there and measure while she's shooting, lol). That seems to be too much, but I haven't seen it addressed here before, so I thought I'd ask the experts.

To be fair to her, she is short, and we play on 9-footers, so this is a natural phenomenon. And while I'm always trying to help her, I'm quite conscious of the fact that I'm not the one to really get into the nuts and bolts of instructing her, beyond sharing what I know to have worked for me, and from what I've learned from you folks. I'm not gonna sit there and try to pick area's to try and "teach", beyond what happens organically.

What I will try to do is take a shot from one of her matches, and go over how to play it afterwards. She has a long history of "hitting it hard", bar style pool, and she has done a great job of improving in most areas of her game. She's really excited to improve, and that is contagious.

Still, I'm wondering if she will become more accurate with her shots if she is closer to the cue ball at address.

I guess it wasn't that "quick" of a question after all, was it? (Just a long winded way of asking it, I suppose...)
Thanks folks. For everything!

 

[Neil]

You want the tip 1/4" or less from the cb at address. Any more than that, and you run a great risk of loosing accuracy on your hit. Often by more than a tip lost in accuracy of cb hit.

 

[Pidge]

As close as possible. Its hard for some people to judge the distance when down but you can train yourself to get within a couple of mm of the cue ball. It takes countless nudges of the cue ball but you get it drummed into your muscle memory soon enough. I am within a couple of mm every time, but started out maybe a ball away from the cue ball so it can be taught
.

 

[justadub]

Thanks folks. I was pretty sure of the answer before I asked the question, but I really appreciate reading the explanations and philosophy behind the answers here, which can help me as I try to help players.

While I'm not all that accomplished a player, I am a bit further along than some that I play with, and I read more than most of the people I play with. I have also discovered that teaching others helps my own play. I just want to keep it in perspective, and not get too far out there, beyond what I can properly execute myself.

Again, thanks. I'm gonna try and gently get my player closer to her cue ball at address, starting this week.

 

[Scott Lee]

Bruce...Both Neal and Pidge are correct. Unless she wears glasses (in which case we give you 1/2" distance from the CB), the ideal is very close (1/4"). There are certain things we teach to get somebody closer to the CB with their tip. First is to slow WAY down the speed and manner of warmups...almost super slow motion at first (you'll go back to your normal "rhythm" later). Second is to lock your eyes on the CB only while she is doing the warmup movements. Third, as Pidge mentioned, she will have to touch the CB several times to let her depth perception "find" where the CB is. Doing all of these things is the fastest way to learn how to get the tip close in actual competition, so you don't want to practice this in league...only away from competition until she can do it slowly, getting very close without touching the CB. It may take a couple of weeks or more to get this proficient. Good luck with your "student"! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[justadub]

Bruce...Both Neal and Pidge are correct. Unless she wears glasses (in which case we give you 1/2" distance from the CB), the ideal is very close (1/4"). There are certain things we teach to get somebody closer to the CB with their tip. First is to slow WAY down the speed and manner of warmups...almost super slow motion at first (you'll go back to your normal "rhythm" later). Second is to lock your eyes on the CB only while she is doing the warmup movements. Third, as Pidge mentioned, she will have to touch the CB several times to let her depth perception "find" where the CB is. Doing all of these things is the fastest way to learn how to get the tip close in actual competition, so you don't want to practice this in league...only away from competition until she can do it slowly, getting very close without touching the CB. It may take a couple of weeks or more to get this proficient. Good luck with your "student"! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Thanks Scott!

No, I wouldn't try to mess with anything before her match....but perhaps afterwards

Thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. I wont go so far as to call her my "student", but she is my buddy. My partner in crime, I suppose. We 're on each others teams, and have a lot if fun. Its also been fun seeing her improve. This will help, I'm sure.

 

[Pidge]

Messing and tinkering with minor issues such as getting the tip close at address are fine before or after a game. Personally I would do it in a practice session or after but others may choose to do it before a match. How ever, if you discover bigger issues with her game that you may decide to try rectify its advisable to do it in the off season. Messing with something such as the stance, alignment and grip should all be done when the player can practice a lot before its ShowTime because they will play worse, much worse before they see improvements.

All the best to you and your team mate

 

[justadub]

Messing and tinkering with minor issues such as getting the tip close at address are fine before or after a game. Personally I would do it in a practice session or after but others may choose to do it before a match. How ever, if you discover bigger issues with her game that you may decide to try rectify its advisable to do it in the off season. Messing with something such as the stance, alignment and grip should all be done when the player can practice a lot before its ShowTime because they will play worse, much worse before they see improvements.

All the best to you and your team mate

Thanks!

As is the case with many of us league players, there often isn't enough real "practice" time in our lives. In the example of my player, she and I play league two nights a week, and we usually are playing on Fridays as well, tho that is more social. I try to get another night in when I can.

As a result, much of her practice time happens on league night. We are fortunate that we have practice tables available much of the time during league, so unless a player is keeping score (usually she or I, heh heh) they can be playing and working on stuff. In the case of my player, she usually gets quite a bit of time to practice on "my" teams night, as I tend to keep score much of the time. On "her"teams night, we split it. (I captain one, she captains the other.)

Especially when we are home, she gets some good practice in, and there are a couple of far better shooters than I who help her and give her suggestions. She is soaking it in, as I said before, its fun seeing her progress.

Yes, we would get better if we had dedicated practice away from league. That is a given. Still, league is important to us, from a personal competitiveness standpoint, and from a social standpoint. We are kinda likes family here in our league, most of the players from all the teams are friends, and it is pretty special. Well take it fairly seriously (some perhaps too seriously, heh heh, while some others could stand to take it up a notch as well) but we're all happy to spend our evenings together too.

Again, thanks for the suggestions Pidge and everyone. Very helpful.

 

[FranCrimi]

An inch is pretty far from the cb so I would also recommend that she try to make the change.

There are problems in making the change:

1. She will foul the cb a lot in the beginning. That's normal, which is why it's important to do this in practice until the cb tapping stops.

2. If she sets up as she normally does, (an inch or so away) and then just moves her cue closer, without moving her back hand back, that would defeat the purpose of setting up closer to the cb because that's exactly how she's hitting the cb now.

3. Likewise, if she sets up an inch away and then moves her entire bridge hand forward, her back hand has a better chance of being in the correct position, but she will be also moving her head closer along with her hands, and it can affect her visually.

The way to train to do this is to practice getting into the desired tip placement right from the start, and set the back hand accordingly. She may find that she now prefers her bridge length a half inch or so longer. That's fine because that may be the distance she needs to be from the cb to see the shot.

This may look like a small adjustment, but it's far from small. It will take time and some tweaking to get it right.

 

[justadub]

An inch is pretty far from the cb so I would also recommend that she try to make the change.

There are problems in making the change:

1. She will foul the cb a lot in the beginning. That's normal, which is why it's important to do this in practice until the cb tapping stops.

2. If she sets up as she normally does, (an inch or so away) and then just moves her cue closer, without moving her back hand back, that would defeat the purpose of setting up closer to the cb because that's exactly how she's hitting the cb now.

3. Likewise, if she sets up an inch away and then moves her entire bridge hand forward, her back hand has a better chance of being in the correct position, but she will be also moving her head closer along with her hands, and it can affect her visually.

The way to train to do this is to practice getting into the desired tip placement right from the start, and set the back hand accordingly. She may find that she now prefers her bridge length a half inch or so longer. That's fine because that may be the distance she needs to be from the cb to see the shot.

This may look like a small adjustment, but it's far from small. It will take time and some tweaking to get it right.

All very good points for me to be conscious of when trying to help her with this, thanks Fran. Excellent advice, as usual.

I'm pretty certain that I would have tried to move her completely forward anyway, but the way you describe the different variables details it quite nicely. (Actually, in a practice situation, I wanted to stop her, measure the distance or maybe even take a photo with my phone to show her. Then have her stay put and move the cue ball closer. To start...)

As I said earlier, while I was pretty sure I knew the answer to my question before I asked it, its the explanations and descriptions from you folks that I was really looking for. This was a perfect example of it.

Thanks again! This place and you folks are so amazing.

 

[FranCrimi]

All very good points for me to be conscious of when trying to help her with this, thanks Fran. Excellent advice, as usual.

I'm pretty certain that I would have tried to move her completely forward anyway, but the way you describe the different variables details it quite nicely. (Actually, in a practice situation, I wanted to stop her, measure the distance or maybe even take a photo with my phone to show her. Then have her stay put and move the cue ball closer. To start...)

As I said earlier, while I was pretty sure I knew the answer to my question before I asked it, its the explanations and descriptions from you folks that I was really looking for. This was a perfect example of it.

Thanks again! This place and you folks are so amazing.

Sure, happy to help, but remember --- by keeping her still and moving the cb closer, say 3/4 of an inch, for example, you are moving her 3/4 of an inch closer to the cue ball. She may need to lengthen her bridge length by that much to keep her eyes the same distance from the cb that they were before. That's why this isn't as easy as it looks. There's some tweaking involved.

 

[justadub]

Sure, happy to help, but remember --- by keeping her still and moving the cb closer, say 3/4 of an inch, for example, you are moving her 3/4 of an inch closer to the cue ball. She may need to lengthen her bridge length by that much to keep her eyes the same distance from the cb that they were before. That's why this isn't as easy as it looks. There's some tweaking involved.

Gotcha!

Will do. Thanks again.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I agree with Fran. I've put it this way in my instructional articles:

Bad players if they are aware of their tip gap close the gap with the stroke hand, ruining their stance and stroke.

Better players adjust the bridge hand.

Great players move their feet closer to the cue ball and set up not only with the right stance but the cue stick's tip close to the cue ball.

Put a chalk cube in between the cue ball and the player. Have them hit the cube and later, stay within a cube's distance at address.

 

[FranCrimi]

I agree with Fran. I've put it this way in my instructional articles:

Bad players if they are aware of their tip gap close the gap with the stroke hand, ruining their stance and stroke.

Better players adjust the bridge hand.

Great players move their feet closer to the cue ball and set up not only with the right stance but the cue stick's tip close to the cue ball.

Put a chalk cube in between the cue ball and the player. Have them hit the cube and later, stay within a cube's distance at address.

If you put that in your article, then you are misleading readers. Your statements are totally arbitrary.

How do you know that great players stand closer than an amateur who places his tip an inch from the cb? Have you measured them? What if the great player has a longer bridge length? Does he still stand closer? What if he has longer legs, or has a long arm span? Does he still stand closer? What if his head is lower on the cue than the amateur? Does he still stand closer?

Anyone who does make that error is at a level where they don't know enough about the game to make the correct fix without help. That's all that needs to be said. Breaking it down between 'bad' and 'better' levels is ridiculous.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Thank you for your comments. I give lessons to many different levels of players. Your advice was spot-on in this thread. I state in lessons what you said in a different way as "Do not be afraid to foul the cue ball for a while as you learn to tighten that tip gap." It's similar in golf, people are afraid to "foul" the golf ball and so beginners and intermediates often place their golf club further from the ball at address than a pro does.

I gave a brief summary in my reply and I apologize if it was misleading. You are right, a total lesson picture would include the player's body dimensions, bridge length and stance. In general, however, my observations have been that low-level league players have huge tip gaps that they "correct" with lunging final strokes or final stance adjustments, higher-level players tend to get a little far back and when they do, adjust their bridge hand closer, which hurts their stroke arm and hand angles less than lunging forward with the stroke hand itself, and pros get right down on the ball--that is--in many lessons I encourage my players to correct their tip gaps with their feet and not just their hands.

 

[FranCrimi]

Thank you for your comments. I give lessons to many different levels of players. Your advice was spot-on in this thread. I state in lessons what you said in a different way as "Do not be afraid to foul the cue ball for a while as you learn to tighten that tip gap." It's similar in golf, people are afraid to "foul" the golf ball and so beginners and intermediates often place their golf club further from the ball at address than a pro does.

I gave a brief summary in my reply and I apologize if it was misleading. You are right, a total lesson picture would include the player's body dimensions, bridge length and stance. In general, however, my observations have been that low-level league players have huge tip gaps that they "correct" with lunging final strokes or final stance adjustments, higher-level players tend to get a little far back and when they do, adjust their bridge hand closer, which hurts their stroke arm and hand angles less than lunging forward with the stroke hand itself, and pros get right down on the ball--that is--in many lessons I encourage my players to correct their tip gaps with their feet and not just their hands.

Sorry Matt....I've gotta say this: My BS alarm is going off --- full blast.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

That’s okay. This AZ subforum allows members to “argue to their heart’s content”. Please recall that this thread has to do with a player who has a good stance, etc. and a large tip gap and also that with due care and duly advising that there was more possible tweaking necessary, you recommended that the player stand closer to the cue ball and that moving the hands was weak compensation.

However, I realize you are objecting not to my advice for this particular player but my generalizations on player skill level and tip gap. It started quite some time ago when I noticed that many of the beginners and intermediates I’d been coaching would get down into their final stance/address (or thought they did) but then made little adjustments to their final position, in large part, it seemed, to cover tip gaps, which habits were likely learned from an early-on fear of fouling the cue ball at address...? My theory, anyway.

Watch a weaker player who takes practice strokes right away before settling into stance/aim dead on target, and often you'll catch them starting their practice strokes a bit forward, not backward, to cover their tip gap! I’ve been watching this phenomenon for some time now and felt our discussion was good fodder for a two-part article on Tip Gap Stopgaps and Solutions.

If I get in perfect position/arm/hand/wrist angle but still have a tip gap, obviously lunging forward with the stroke hand breaks the body angles. However, moving the bridge hand only to drag the cue stick forward, something a lot of intermediates do, nudges the cue into place while leaving the stroke arm (somewhat) better off. When I see league players do one or the other when I meet them, I can pretty much guess their league averages. Seriously!

Instead, I've assigned some students the drill of taking up a good close stance on the cue ball, standing up again, and then taking the stance once again, coming a bit closer with their feet than hands to the ball then they're otherwise used to doing. Practicing stance over and again, getting right down and close behind the ball. The key is for them to do so without fidgeting and also to use visual aids (they find it hard to see how close/far the cue tip is to the cue ball when low over the cue stick with their head).

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Amateurs standing too far off the ball can be expressed differently also. Telling a player who uses a straight bridge arm to lengthen their bridge might lead them to stand further back rather than close their tip gap by standing a little closer. Also, some players who like to lean back to "see down the line" need to scrunch in quite a bit sometimes. I've had a number of students say, "Now I feel funny because I'm so close to the cue ball" but their "funny" new setup helps them pocket more balls.

I have the student pre-set their bridge length in the port arms position then come down as if they're almost "painting the cue ball with the cue tip" to get close in... this is a great response when they ask how far to stand from the cue ball with their feet on a clear shot without a rail or interference ball.

 

[Pidge]

The best way to adjust a gap between tip and cue ball is to move the entire body closer. That's easier said than done. If you do this the entire alignment gets tweaked and thrown off line. Then you have to either miss the shot, or aim again when you are down. Your aiming process should be done when stood, so aiming again when down is a no no.

Instead, its better to adjust by sliding the grip back towards the butt a little and then putting their arm back in their normal position. This simply gets the tip closer and lengthens the bridge a little. Soon enough a person learns to stand the correct distance away from the cue ball to get the tip close.

Often times when I'm tight or close to a rail I grip my cue too far back to begin with. Slide the hand towards the tip and its problem solved.

A good little test is to get the player to touch the ball with the tip and push the ball into a pocket. Not only does this tell you if they are applying unintentional side because of an initial alignment problem, but it gets them to have a feeling of how close they can actually get to the ball without touching it.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I appreciate your methods but a lot of players have too long a bridge already IMO. You also have to watch lower-level players who take practice strokes in the air and do other fidgets to "fake" their bridge length. Watch closely and you'll see players start practice strokes a bit forward, not backward, to cover big tip gaps.