Quick question re distance from the cue ball at address

[Pidge]

Could it be that the fidgets or taking practice strokes forwards first is a way for them to adjust the back hand? Stroke forward, let go of the cue a little then grip it again to get the cue closer? I see a lot of players doing this.

I personally think getting the cue close is the least of a new comers problems. Over time as they progress they get a feel for how far back to stand from the cue ball.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

While I respectfully disagree, may I say I love the way you think and teach pool using logic and your obvious knowledge of the game. I'm sure you've helped many players do better.

I teach other stick-and-ball sports although I've pondered and taught pool and golf the most. All stick-and-ball sport greatness (or goodness for beginners!) starts with a great stance. Even though it feels funny to weaker level players, in lessons I get them to think down and into the cue ball and shot line rather than backing off it (because of fear of fouling the cue ball or wanting to lean back for leverage not finesse or whatever) and they usually feel "weird" but start controlling the rock better, and immediately.

Another reason I teach to stance closer rather than lengthening the bridge is that I'm usually teaching speed control via shortening the bridge in the same lesson. Weaker players need help with touch safeties and need a tight bridge and a full, smooth stroke (because they usually take their already long bridge and try to feel for a soft shot). I'd have them lengthen the bridge in the same lesson only for power strokes.

Thanks.

 

[CJ Wiley]

DO NOT ever, ever, change the distance between the cue ball and tip with your feet

I'll say, it's like a tsunami warning siren in Hawaii.

DO NOT ever, ever, change the distance between the cue ball and tip with your feet. It is wise to set your feet as the foundation of your stoke AND LEAVE THEM THERE, or else the entire "building" will crumble.

Thanks, Fran, for pointing that out, it could have gotten someone into a seriously bad habit. And you, Matt, need to listen to experience instructors like Fran more often. imho - much of what you say is waaaaayyyyyyyy off base, and obvious to us.

Sorry Matt....I've gotta say this: My BS alarm is going off --- full blast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post

I gave a brief summary in my reply and I apologize if it was misleading. You are right, a total lesson picture would include the player's body dimensions, bridge length and stance. In general, however, my observations have been that low-level league players have huge tip gaps that they "correct" with lunging final strokes or final stance adjustments, higher-level players tend to get a little far back and when they do, adjust their bridge hand closer, which hurts their stroke arm and hand angles less than lunging forward with the stroke hand itself, and pros get right down on the ball--that is--in many lessons I encourage my players to correct their tip gaps with their feet and not just their hands.

 

[croscoe]

Ok ...now if not with the feet and not with the cue or bridge...... don't tell me it's ok to move the cue BALL....Great another secret revealed...

Just kidding I'm sure there is something combined.

Just couldn't help myself.......................................

 

[BilliardsAbout]

If we can please deal with this particular subject in context. I agree about setting and leaving the feet, but if they are the wrong distance away from the cue ball to begin... I have a player begin their stance again from the erect position. I would never tell a player down on the table to move their feet! I readjust players from the standing, erect position while they are eyeing the balls/considering the upcoming shot. I have written extensively that top players do not fiddle about after bending to the table and mentioned that several times in this thread alone.

As for the rest--I freely admit to being rather too terse on these forums and I need to contextualize what I write more carefully. I also admit to having some pet theories that I use for shortcuts for some students. I hope to meet with you someday in person so we can discuss and work together to "bridge" our understanding. Same goes for Fran.

One of my pet theories is that weaker players learned early on not to foul the cue ball and so stand a little far at address. Since another of my theories is that weaker players tend to have too long a bridge, I built some tools to address the problem beyond lengthening their bridge. This isn’t mysticism but simple logic, however, and while I am orthodox in some of my ideas and communication methods, I don't throw out the fundamentals when teaching or playing.

And speaking as a fellow golfer, I'm sure you'd agree that a high handicapper whose club is too far from the golf ball, by way of analogy, shouldn't perhaps just move his hands to adjust the club closer after being in the stance--which would put their club ahead of their hands at address--but might be playing the ball off the wrong foot or standing too far away as well, etc. This kind of thing is true in all stick-and-ball sports IMHO.

Again just so it's extra clear, I'm not advocating someone with a tip gap moving their feet while aiming and bent over the balls. I'm telling students to get in closer to their work before they bend to the stance address position.

Thanks.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Watching Jayson Shaw, maybe the purist ball striker pool has ever seen, super fast player, 2, 3 strokes, boom there it goes, dead center pocket.
Many shots he has at least 1/2'' tip gap and more. He is not the only one with a large tip gap.
He beat Mika yesterday 9-1 in 20 minutes, I didn't see it, I read about it.

Also many great and very good players do move their feet, not all the time, but they do. They are called cat steps or cat slides; baseball players, golfers, Martial Arts etc. use them. They also move their hips, change the distance of the feet etc.

Mizerak told me, make sure your feet are under you, if you don't feel right, reset, if you feel good and know it’s a small adjustment, dance into posture, snuggle into the aim line.. The dance is so small most can't even see it.

Could someone explain this wild and crazy phenomenon?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Watching Jayson Shaw, maybe the purist ball striker pool has ever seen, super fast player, 2, 3 strokes, boom there it goes, dead center pocket.
Many shots he has at least 1/2'' tip gap and more. He is not the only one with a large tip gap.
He beat Mika yesterday 9-1 in 20 minutes, I didn't see it, I read about it.

Also many great and very good players do move their feet, not all the time, but they do. They are called cat steps or cat slides; baseball players, golfers, Martial Arts etc. use them. They also move their hips, change the distance of the feet etc.

Mizerak told me, make sure your feet are under you, if you don't feel right, reset, if you feel good and know it’s a small adjustment, dance into posture, snuggle into the aim line.. The dance is so small most can't even see it.

Could someone explain this wild and crazy phenomenon?

You've got to feel right & it starts in the toes from the ground up & the smallest pebble under a hitters foot can be the difference between a swing & a mis or a Home Run.

CJ Wiley, in his TIPS DVD, refers to just a weight shift with in the foot or feet.

dance into posture, snuggle into the aim line.. I like those phrases.

The smallest twist of the hips.

Great things come in very small packages.

 

[SmoothStroke]

You've got to feel right & it starts in the toes from the ground up & the smallest pebble under a hitters foot can be the difference between a swing & a mis or a Home Run.

CJ Wiley, in his TIPS DVD, refers to just a weight shift with in the foot or feet.

dance into posture, snuggle into the aim line.. I like those phrases.

The smallest twist of the hips.

Great things come in very small packages.

I live what I type 99% of the time. I have no problem dancing and snuggling, and no problem teaching how to find it.
The movements are so minute many times they cannot be detected.
Former Baseball and Tennis player, have feet will travel.
Have a great day

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I have an article or two at my site about "dancing" players like Mosconi. But in general, dancing isn't for everyone and I'd rather most players have a firm base to shoot from...

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You are correct IMO. 1/2" is not a large gap IMO. But a lot of newbies have more than this. If the gap is an inch or more people are off half a cue ball before they stroke and some kind of lunge (is likely) on the way.

I don't believe everyone needs a razor blade's width of tip gap, only some greats do or have done so. Most good players have a bit of gap and this helps them pop the ball without the overly-long stroke that has been talked about on recent threads here. But take a look the next time "you are doing field research" and you will likely see bad players with "big old" gaps.

Thanks,

 

[gregcantrall]

You want the tip 1/4" or less from the cb at address. Any more than that, and you run a great risk of loosing accuracy on your hit. Often by more than a tip lost in accuracy of cb hit.

Efren Reyes, Ernesto Dominguez, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Neil Robertson, Ralph Souquet, to name a few, do not get anywhere near a quarter inch from the cue ball at address. Just watched all of these players on Youtube and Ernesto typically was an inch from the ball, Ronnie I never saw get closer than a half inch and typically three quarters of an inch. Efren was in the half to three quarters range.

Most of these players kept the initial address strokes at an inch then came closest with the final address stroke. None of them came as close as a quarter inch even on that final address stroke.

Anyone that is having a problem touching the cue ball with their tip at address, needs to be taught to look at the cue ball when the cue is moving towards it. Then look at the object ball when the cue stops. Easy solution.

Edit: It was Oscar not Ernesto that cued the furthest back. Just watched Ernesto playing Mika Immonen and Mika stays at least three quarters back as well. Ernesto about the same.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Hi Greg,

First let me say I LOVE your post. I like to be at AZ Billiards when people are honestly exchanging ideas and observations rather than "You are wrong and you know it" without input and facts. That is intolerable from my fellow teachers IMO. By contrast, we are having a discussion like adults. Your note stimulated me to writing a new article for my site today, and I appreciate that--it gets stale sometimes after your first umpteen articles sometimes!

My thoughts: I watch it all from the first aim setup, little waggles to the final position, just before the final trigger is pulled. I hope I was clear on previous posts in this thread where I stated not all pros get in there super-tight, but just as you wrote, a lot of pros are 1/2" or a little more out at final address (yeah, I'd say most pros!). I work with a lot of solid players who struggle, however, and I also see a lot of low-ranked players (like APA 3s) and they have similarities also, with a lot of them further out at address.

I agree with you they can fix the problem by eyeing the cue ball for the strike but if they are very far out by the time they strike it their hand/wrist/arm may be in a less-than-ideal position. Oh, and one more thing, it's usually easier for me and for the student if they've had the same setup for decades and have good fundamentals but a big ole' tip gap to change nothing except to get them to stand closer to the ball rather than have them change their bridge and etc.

Thanks for your comments and I certainly welcome any follow-up. It's observing pros and others that teach us the deepest pool truths.

 

[Neil]

Efren Reyes, Ernesto Dominguez, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Neil Robertson, Ralph Souquet, to name a few, do not get anywhere near a quarter inch from the cue ball at address. Just watched all of these players on Youtube and Ernesto typically was an inch from the ball, Ronnie I never saw get closer than a half inch and typically three quarters of an inch. Efren was in the half to three quarters range.

Most of these players kept the initial address strokes at an inch then came closest with the final address stroke. None of them came as close as a quarter inch even on that final address stroke.

Anyone that is having a problem touching the cue ball with their tip at address, needs to be taught to look at the cue ball when the cue is moving towards it. Then look at the object ball when the cue stops. Easy solution.

Edit: It was Oscar not Ernesto that cued the furthest back. Just watched Ernesto playing Mika Immonen and Mika stays at least three quarters back as well. Ernesto about the same.

Greg, you only focused on part of what I stated. Any farther away and you risk losing accuracy. The guys you mentioned, have that accuracy. The vast majority of us do not. So, for us, it's better to start closer so we hit where we want to.

You can't reliably just look at what someone else is doing, and expect to be able to duplicate it or use their method as an all-around example of it working for everyone. If we had the accuracy of hit they have, you could duplicate them. But, we don't. So, we have to do what works to achieve that accuracy.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Efren Reyes, Ernesto Dominguez, Ronnie O'Sullivan, Neil Robertson, Ralph Souquet, to name a few, do not get anywhere near a quarter inch from the cue ball at address. Just watched all of these players on Youtube and Ernesto typically was an inch from the ball, Ronnie I never saw get closer than a half inch and typically three quarters of an inch. Efren was in the half to three quarters range.

Most of these players kept the initial address strokes at an inch then came closest with the final address stroke. None of them came as close as a quarter inch even on that final address stroke.

Anyone that is having a problem touching the cue ball with their tip at address, needs to be taught to look at the cue ball when the cue is moving towards it. Then look at the object ball when the cue stops. Easy solution.

Edit: It was Oscar not Ernesto that cued the furthest back. Just watched Ernesto playing Mika Immonen and Mika stays at least three quarters back as well. Ernesto about the same.

I know we've been asked not to contribute here unless we are an instructor, but I just wanted to say I'm glad to hear from an instructor who feels how I do about this. Personally, I could never make a ball playing so close to the CB. I'd be shaking so bad worrying I was gonna accidentally foul that I'd miss outright. Besides, it would just make me tense up my back arm, something I am constantly fighting to keep loose.

3/4"-1" is where I feel most comfortable, and that is where I see 90% of good players addressing the ball. Some, like Bustie, are way back a full ball or even more. I can't buy into the logic that weaker players need to get closer for accuracy reasons. Number one, I still have to pull that cue back 8-12" and stroke from there. How does that 1/4" space I sweated over at address help me from that point?

Bottom line is you need a great stroke to play the game, and getting so close to the CB that you are almost touching it ain't gonna help you if your stroke sucks. And if your stroke is true, well, you already have the required accuracy. Work on your stroke and don't worry about a couple centimeters is how I feel about it.

 

[Neil]

I know we've been asked not to contribute here unless we are an instructor, but I just wanted to say I'm glad to hear from an instructor who feels how I do about this. Personally, I could never make a ball playing so close to the CB. I'd be shaking so bad worrying I was gonna accidentally foul that I'd miss outright. Besides, it would just make me tense up my back arm, something I am constantly fighting to keep loose.

3/4"-1" is where I feel most comfortable, and that is where I see 90% of good players addressing the ball. Some, like Bustie, are way back a full ball or even more. I can't buy into the logic that weaker players need to get closer for accuracy reasons. Number one, I still have to pull that cue back 8-12" and stroke from there. How does that 1/4" space I sweated over at address help me from that point?

Bottom line is you need a great stroke to play the game, and getting so close to the CB that you are almost touching it ain't gonna help you if your stroke sucks. And if your stroke is true, well, you already have the required accuracy. Work on your stroke and don't worry about a couple centimeters is how I feel about it.

I was going to explain why it is important to be close, but, to be honest, I really don't see the point of typing it out. It's like talking to a wall on here. Do what you want to. It only affects you. Too many on here don't want to learn, only argue. I'm out.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I was going to explain why it is important to be close, but, to be honest, I really don't see the point of typing it out. It's like talking to a wall on here. Do what you want to. It only affects you. Too many on here don't want to learn, only argue. I'm out.

Then why do you persist?

Sorry if you think I'm a "walI", but I ain't arguing with you, I'm agreeing with Greg. At least I think I am. I love to learn, but if something makes no sense at all, why should I embrace it just to prove to you that I am openminded? Why do you take every comment that doesn't agree with your thinking as a personal attack? And it's not just me, it's everyone that disagrees with you.

I think most great players today learned how to play pool by being mentored by other great players, or being around them 18 hours a day and observing and emulating them. I can't think of one top pool player who learned his craft from a book, a DVD, or in "Pool School". Most never had any formal lessons at all, they just played so much that they developed their own style based on their natural endowments and their own experience. Part of that experience was trying out what they observed.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Please, let's keep the conversation going. I think it helps me and everyone to clarify thoughts if you're up for it. And if I learn to understand tip gap better, that helps me and my students both.

I personally am not a "razor blade" width player and like to "pop" the cue ball from a bit away, too. But the context is that I see a lot of people who address the ball far out, and then--and this is a thing weak players do often--get closer, whether they are getting really tight to the cue ball or an inch or more out--no matter--by nudging the tip closer with their stroke hand. They might therefore address the ball beautifully but set themselves for a jabbing, lunging stroke. And on shots where they don't get in tight? They tend to poke at and mishit the ball. Watch some folks play and see their practice strokes start forward, not backward, their cues stroking in the air as they bend down--not standing erect in the port arms position like a pro--but as they bend over and "guess" at their distance from the cue ball, etc.

You can do a lot of stuff if you're The Magician. He can stand with a one foot tip gap and still pocket the balls, I'm sure--I demonstrate the same in my clinics when I talk about tip gap. Try it if you want to see what a lot of tip gap does so you can bring those thought back to a smaller tip gap.

I tell my players to use a chalk cube as a handy aim aid. Two chalk cubes are 1/2 a cue ball's width. If I want two tips of top right english and I'm not using backhand english, starting half a ball away is two tips of bottom left hand english, depending on how you count tips...

...But please know that in individual lessons I'm taking into account elbow drop, stance peculiarities, etc. How should I advise a player, though, who has a nice everything else but keeps lunging with their final stroke? What advice would you give them? I'm not challenging you. I'm asking you, because I know I can get stuck in my own head on this stuff and I'm open to suggestions... yes, I forget I'm here to learn sometimes and not just teach. I'm not saying that in a patronizing way, either.

Again, weaker players IMO fool about with their stroke hand and kill the position of their wrist and/or lower arm. Stronger players adjust their bridge hand but weren't coming to address accurately to begin. Top players bend down without fiddling about (once their bridge hand is touching the cloth). My recommendation is that "some" of the lungers, if I feel their main problem is tip gap, stand closer. I haven't talked about how to use the cue like a ruler and etc. to know where to put the feet but I can tell you they start pocketing more balls and gaining more confidence promptly.

An interesting comment was made on how great players learn. I agree about observation and mimicking--so much so that there is an entire chapter in my pool book titled, "How to Learn Any Sport: Imitating Models", so please don't feel I'm disagreeing with you, but I believe some pros in all sports work very, very hard to overcome their quirks that hurt them--pros like Tiger Woods will change even their stance and setup when at the tops of their sport to improve--and pros including some of the top pool pros visit other pros and teachers for encouragement, to look at their fundamentals, and lessons. I've recently talked about fundamentals with some very fine pros and teachers.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Then why do you persist?

Sorry if you think I'm a "walI", but I ain't arguing with you, I'm agreeing with Greg. At least I think I am. I love to learn, but if something makes no sense at all, why should I embrace it just to prove to you that I am openminded? Why do you take every comment that doesn't agree with your thinking as a personal attack? And it's not just me, it's everyone that disagrees with you.

I think most great players today learned how to play pool by being mentored by other great players, or being around them 18 hours a day and observing and emulating them. I can't think of one top pool player who learned his craft from a book, a DVD, or in "Pool School". Most never had any formal lessons at all, they just played so much that they developed their own style based on their natural endowments and their own experience. Part of that experience was trying out what they observed.

I don't think Neil was referring to you personally.

In my opinion, the farther your address point is from the CB, the less accurate you're hit will be. I don't think anyone would disagree that if you address the CB from four inches away, you will not likely be very accurate with your hit.

That said, I don't think the difference between a quarter inch and maybe even an inch matters all that much. The lower your head in your stance, the closer your tip will appear to the CB.

But also keep in mind that while there's an exception to every rule, that doesn't make every exception a good idea. There was a world class bowler in the 1950s (if memory serves, his name was Lou Campi) who ended his approach on the wrong foot. It worked for him, but he never suggested that anyone imitate his style.

 

[Ratta]

Hi all,

i also think, that Neil just wrote it/said it as a general rule- and i m sure, everybody understands, that this is also very right-

to show up with examples like Alex Pagulayan for example-- well- tough exmaple

The point that ppl also try to copy other great pros- good point- and also helpful imo...to then finally later their own style.

Matt s posting has many good points- you cannot put every student into the same pocket!

where i don t agree-- that *most pros didn t have* proper lessons. Nowadays i know enough professionals- or let us say very strong players and cue-athletes , who defnitley had structured practice sessions and lessons very early in their pool career.
And imo it helped them a lot. (talking here just about european guys- cannot speak for the rest).

Also here the exceptions are clearly there- no matter if we talk about Efren , Earl or Busti with his extreme stroke-- not to copy
I think if someone would try to copy or mimick Bustis stroke....olol- that would end in a comedy, grin.


HOw Matt said: with civil discussions everyone could learn a lot from AZB- and from each other.

everyone may havea smooth stroke,

Ingo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Then why do you persist?

Sorry if you think I'm a "walI", but I ain't arguing with you, I'm agreeing with Greg. At least I think I am. I love to learn, but if something makes no sense at all, why should I embrace it just to prove to you that I am openminded? Why do you take every comment that doesn't agree with your thinking as a personal attack? And it's not just me, it's everyone that disagrees with you.

I think most great players today learned how to play pool by being mentored by other great players, or being around them 18 hours a day and observing and emulating them. I can't think of one top pool player who learned his craft from a book, a DVD, or in "Pool School". Most never had any formal lessons at all, they just played so much that they developed their own style based on their natural endowments and their own experience. Part of that experience was trying out what they observed.

Good post. You seem to be on a good roll.