quiet eye technique, golf & pool :

Solartje

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
i recommend this read to every player.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_2004_Jan/ai_112104116/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

Since sienctific studies on eye gaze and quiet eye, there have been more and more implementations of the technique into sport. This article talks about golf, but it is exactly the same for pool.

I can't find the url anymore, but i read they used gaze folowing machienes, and compared the gaze of 24 poolplayers: 12 good and 12 ballbangers, and the better poolplayers all had a more quiet eye.

i'm going to use the quiet eye training for a month and see if i can see any progression.


**********************
xtra

I'm still trying to find an explenation on visual illusions on certain shots. (ex long shots on a ob against the rail at 1 diamond from the corner, and cb 1 or 2 diamonds wide from the siderail on the headstring.)

i don't remember in wich pool instructional poolvideo i saw it (if anyone knows what i'm talking about, plz post the link. i know i read it here on AZB, but they told you to just shoot it straight, even if the eyes saw an angle, and it would go in... but i havent been able to find any scientific explenation for wich shots this happens and why. I had done some thinking before, and the first clue had to do with 2 parallel lines will come closer and form an angle the further you look. || will be more lile /\, so if this is true for paralel lines, it also aplies when you use the rail and the line from the OB to the pocket as a way to measure the angle. You might see a 30? angle and play half ball, where in real life it is only 20? + 10? due to the distance, and the half ball hit will make you miss the shot.

I know if i can understand why sometimes my eye give me the wrong angle, i could become a better potter. I personally use the ghostball and contact point to define my aiming line and it helps on 95% of the pots, but seeing the angle and judging it right is a 3th part of the information that helps me aim better.

imagine the 8ball 6 foot away. How can you focus on the contact point? its to farr to really focus (unless you have PERFECT vision) and the fully black surface makes it almost impossible to keep your gaze quiet for 3 seconds on a 1mm surface at that distance. this is just an example

If this 3th information can be wrong due to optical illusion, i'm sure that for 5% of the shots, they could make me double guess my aim, and make conscious or even subconsious adjustments that makes me miss the pot.

I've been trying to counter this, by judging the angle when standing up, and if i see a 30? angle, i WILL play it half ball, no matter of when down it looks like 35 or 40?. Perfect example is speed pool. When i play speedpool, my stroke isn't 100% perfect, but my aiming line ALWAYS is 100% right, and i miss less do to a right aiming line but a 80% perfect stroke, then i do with a 80% aim and a 100% perfect stroke. And i'm sure that my eyes judje the aimingline and angles better, because i'm calculating them while running to the next ball. Now i would want a 100% aim/angle and 100% stroke, and for that i need to understand what optical illusions happen in pool. (colours of balls also have an influence, but i'm mainly focusing on angles now)


I know I aborted this subject once, and in short the reactions where that i was going tomuch in detail about how we see things and that my drawings made people deasy :eek: , and thinking about it would make them miss even more so noone really helped getting some conclusions and tests and opinions.


edit: i'll try to find my old post and hope the read on the quiet eye will encourage to have more EYE posts, then AIM posts. dont forget: your EYE'S , tell your brain to tell your muscles where to STROKE. If the eye's are wrong, the stroke might be perfect, but the ball wont go in.

The only thing people do talk about is dominant eye, but thats as far as it goes and i find it sad.
PS here was one of the first posts: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81054&page=3&highlight=eyes
for the record: i'm using dominant eye over the cue now, and forcing its dominance and its working perfect for straight in shots.


Solly.
 
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Solartje said:
i recommend this read to every player.


imagine the 8ball 6 foot away. How can you focus on the contact point? its to farr to really focus (unless you have PERFECT vision) and the fully black surface makes it almost impossible to keep your gaze quiet for 3 seconds on a 1mm surface at that distance. this is just an example


Solly.
Click to expand...

You can take this or leave this as I have been advocating long distance focusing for about 5 years on the forums now, with not a single person commenting, so here goes a brief verson. There is a psysiological term also that I read about in 'Precision Pool'. Only one other book I know mentions this.

When you step up to the cueball, your eyes should start fixating on the ghost ball, even before you get down on the shot.

Your eyes should be going up and down, but you have to make a choice about focusing more on the object ball vs. the cue ball, the cue stick, your parallel lines made by the cue stick. Once you start this long distance focusing the object ball will become LARGER and more clearer that ever and you CAN see minute spots on the ball if you want to.

I learned this is psychology class 101 and this exercise was mentioned in 'Precision Pool' that I just got for Christmas.

Hold two thumbs out with the closest thumb being half the distance. Now focus on the nearest thumb and notice how blurry and smaller the thumb in the distance is. Now focus on the thumb farthest away and it will become clear and will appear much LARGER than it did the first look.

It doesn't take a brain child to figure this out, but like I said, nobody on any forum that I have been on has placed any credence on this. That includes pool schools and private instructors also - missing the boat entirely.

A few people do this naturally, but the majority of us are fidgiting around trying to see if their tip is where it is supposed to be etc. You probably need to practice this a lot.
 
Perception and pocket billiards

I had been a strong advocate of the dominant eye "rifle shooting" technique for nearly 20 years. After watching pros shoot length of table shots with one eye over the cue stick it was simply a behavioral fact. Originally, I thought that if this technique worked best on length of table shots then for consistency it should be used on all shots to improve the length of one's runs. I have recently reversed my opinion for reasons I have never seen in print. The reasons are somewhat related to your original post.

I use what I call an imaginary nine inch nail through the OB to the pocket. The intent is to "hammer" the OB into the pocket with whatever part of the CB is needed to do the hammering. For many years I have thought the best way to find the smallest possible nail head (ala Jennette Lee's suggestion) was to use a rifle sight. I now think this is wrong.

When the length of the shot is less than five -- six feet we need to use two eyes to establish a line of travel for the OB and the CB. We need to use both eyes to see the angle of the shot, the outside edges of the OB, the center line for the shot, and the track down which the OB will roll. The best way to establish these CB and OB "railroad tracks" is with lines down the centers of the tracks through the use of both eyes, especially when the OB track is at an off angle. One eye does not allow the player to establish the necessary perspective and the relationship of all three lines to the OB and from the OB to the pocket.

If one does not use the ?railroad? track approach and uses only one line of travel for the OB two eyes are needed. The estimated line of travel is relative to the table and various sign posts such as the rails, dirt on the cloth, lines on the ball etc. Any of the reference points used for establishing a line of travel require both eyes to establish the correct perspective or relationship between the estimated line of travel and some other point(s).

I think that rifle sighting is of use on length of table thin cut shots. After observing the pros use this technique I think I know why it is favored on long difficult shots. Perspective converges over distance as you allude to above. For instance if you stand on a railroad track in the center of the tracks and look into the distance your eye will tell you that the tracks converge in the distance though you know this is not true. If you photograph a tall building from the ground with the focal plane at an angle it will appear that the outside of the building appears to converge towards the top of the building. If you shoot a photo of a row of buildings it will look like the roof lines begin to converge over a block or so. They don?t touch but you will see the roof lines are no longer parallel to the ground. This is all ?normal? visual perception of objects seen at a distance and is one of the ways in which we use to determine how far away an object is relative to other objects. Interfering objects (such as other pool balls) also affect our distance estimates. If you are interested in a further discussion of perception and illusions see most any intro to psychology text book. Look up visual perception and or illusions.

The perception of converging lines is "normal" and in fact there is little that we can do about it. On a pool table the perception of converging lines will take place with any shot longer than five or six feet. To compensate for this natural phenomenon the player needs to be able to estimate the CB?s width at the target location. Parallel lines should not be used. I think that our eyes can be trained to estimate a ball?s width at a distance of nine feet. When this has been learned only the outside edge of the CB line of travel must be determined. This determination allows one to strike the estimated contact point and an estimated line of travel in two dimensions. This will effectively ignore the third dimension which causes the perceptual distortion. The line of travel relative to other objects is not visualized. In this instance one is shooting the CB like a bullet and rifle sighting takes the visual mis-perceptions out of the task.

Of course all of this is only one person's opinion. You get what you pay for in life and your milage may vary :cool:
 
Quiet Eye
I think that the research here is unequivocal: The quiet eye is needed when playing pool. I have a few add on ideas that have not been addressed in the research at this point. The eye should intentionally (thoughtfully) establish the OB's line of travel while standing. This point should be gazed (stared) at as one bends over the table. Contact point tracking changes as one changes position. One should continually stare at this point for a second (that is a long time) after arriving at the shooting position. This will firmly establish the intended target before anything else is attempted. This makes sense in that we need the target firmly in mind before we attend to any other matters.

The player then enters their preliminary routine and I think that the next point of emphasis should be to ground the cue stick on the table to insure that the stick is on the CB exact center line (many pros use this technique). Following this, warm up strokes and cue tip offset for positional play, the eye returns to the target and the stick is paused in the rear position. Here the quiet eye is again used and one needs to stare at the contact point for a substantial amount of time to allow the brain to get everything together for the shot. A substantial amount of time appears to be in the neighborhood of a second or two.

Staring at the "hit" allows one to learn what was done right or wrong and correct their technique.

It would be easy enough to determine if the suggested technique is useful or a waste of time. Shoot about 10 -15 reasonably difficult shots. These would be defined as shots that you have about a 50% chance of making. Keep track of how many of the shots you actually make. Next used the technique suggested above for the same shots and keep track of the number you make. The differences between the scores should convince you one way or the other.

Before someone asks, I am not a professional pool player: I am a retired scientist and a psychologist.
 
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Solartje said:
i don't remember in wich pool instructional poolvideo i saw it (if anyone knows what i'm talking about, plz post the link.
Click to expand...

I have a video where Bert Kinister talks about that shot. Interesting that I really do not have a problem with that one particular shot. However, there are a couple of others that if the object ball is in the kitchen and I am at the other end of the table I have to make sure I do not lose my perspective of the shot line. So, I extend a line from a rail through the object ball and to the pocket as a reference. As I am lining up for the shot I am also looking at that spot on the rail to make sure I can see that line. I do not see other people do this so maybe it is just me that has this problem on these shots.
 
This is interesting. I have found that there are times when I feel like I just don't "know" where the pocket is - when I feel like that I miss about 75% of the time. If I stand up, back up from the table, take the angles in again, and restart my pre-shot routine I am usually able to get a better idea of the pocket location and make the ball. The problem with this is forcing myself to stand back up and start over.

There are other times when I feel like I know EXACTLY where the pocket is and I get this picture in my head of the ball going directly to the middle of the pocket. When that happens I always make the ball.

The weird thing is that the shots where I know exactly where to hit the ball are almost always long table-length shots.. Another thing is I can't force or fake the feeling of knowing exactly where the pocket is - it has to come naturally.

I'm going to read this article a couple times - I wouldn't be suprised if there is a difference in my pre-shot routine and my eye movements that are causing the inconsistancies.
 
One of the interesting aspects of the published study was that players spend less time looking at shots that they miss. I have observed players in the leagues after reading this and came to the conclusion that it is indeed true. It is as though the player knows they are going to miss and thus spend less time on the shot.

As a follow up I tried spending more (not less) time on the difficult shots and found that I made more shots. I suspect that this is more in one's head than in their visual ability.
 
I agree with and use principals of the quiet eye technique, but I think where a lot of people get mixed up and perhaps frustrated is that there is a big difference beteween focusing your eyes and centering your eyes. Focusing can imply that you zero in on an object and essentially block out everything else. I don't believe that is what the quiet eye technique is about.

I believe the objective is to center or rest your eyes on an object or target while still balancing your attention on the target with your peripheral awareness. Basically your eyes are centered on a target or reference point, but your mind is still seeing the whole picture.

I would be interested if someone disagrees with this. :D
 
In my case you are correct, if I concentrate only on the OB contact point it makes me miss the shot. I have to have a balance of that and the location I want the OB to go. I usually do this by trying to "feel" the OB go in and visuallizing the path.
 
whitewolf said:
You can take this or leave this as I have been advocating long distance focusing for about 5 years on the forums now, with not a single person commenting, so here goes a brief verson. There is a psysiological term also that I read about in 'Precision Pool'. Only one other book I know mentions this.

When you step up to the cueball, your eyes should start fixating on the ghost ball, even before you get down on the shot.

Your eyes should be going up and down, but you have to make a choice about focusing more on the object ball vs. the cue ball, the cue stick, your parallel lines made by the cue stick. Once you start this long distance focusing the object ball will become LARGER and more clearer that ever and you CAN see minute spots on the ball if you want to.

I learned this is psychology class 101 and this exercise was mentioned in 'Precision Pool' that I just got for Christmas.

Hold two thumbs out with the closest thumb being half the distance. Now focus on the nearest thumb and notice how blurry and smaller the thumb in the distance is. Now focus on the thumb farthest away and it will become clear and will appear much LARGER than it did the first look.

It doesn't take a brain child to figure this out, but like I said, nobody on any forum that I have been on has placed any credence on this. That includes pool schools and private instructors also - missing the boat entirely.

A few people do this naturally, but the majority of us are fidgiting around trying to see if their tip is where it is supposed to be etc. You probably need to practice this a lot.
Click to expand...

Army snipers do this. I worked with one and his distance vision was phenomenal even though his eyes weren't that great (worse than 20/20). He told me it was because he focused at distance and most people don't. Not that they can't, they just don't.

As for Solly's original point. I've wondered about that too. I am currently playing with uncorrected vision. I am not wearing my contact lenses. My potting has increased this way even though at distance the balls are very fuzzy.

I get my aim line standing up and then fall into the shot in the right line. Once I do this I can (and have) run many racks with my eyes closed. (I close them after I get down on the shot)

I actually seem to make more shots with my eyes closed sometimes because I don't make any adjustments during my stroke because I can't see. For me it's a good test of mechanics. If I'm making balls with my eyes closed, then my misses are in my head. If I'm missing balls with my eyes closed, then I need to work on my line or my stroke.

Try it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

~rc
 
JoeW said:
One of the interesting aspects of the published study was that players spend less time looking at shots that they miss. I have observed players in the leagues after reading this and came to the conclusion that it is indeed true. It is as though the player knows they are going to miss and thus spend less time on the shot.

As a follow up I tried spending more (not less) time on the difficult shots and found that I made more shots. I suspect that this is more in one's head than in their visual ability.
Click to expand...

That is absolutely true. I catch myself doing that all the time. An old mentor of mine told me it was because I was scared of the shot so I wanted to get it over with.

~rc
 
sixpack said:
An old mentor of mine told me it was because I was scared of the shot so I wanted to get it over with.
Click to expand...

That is a great way to put it!! You should have the courage to play the shot to your best ability.
 
md5key said:
That is a great way to put it!! You should have the courage to play the shot to your best ability.
Click to expand...

I like the way you put it too! Be courageous is a good swing thought on a tough shot. I'm going to start using that.

~rc
 
Univ of Fla in Gainesville has done extensive research on this subject. Also anyone that has taken lessons from Randy G and Scott Lee have been informed of this very important technique. I'd give Randy & Scott the nod for first explaining this to me personally and when I DO IT there is a very serious positive effect on my potting ability.
Dan
 
Randy explained at Pool School that you keep your eye movement to a minimum. You don't need to look at the target for a long time. Only 1 or 2 seconds. It is not necessary to look back and forth more than once or twice. Too much info for the brain. What we were taught was to keep the shifting to a minimum.

The quiet eye study also shows that it is better to continue to focus on the spot where your target was and not follow it. The example was putting in the video.
Here is the link to the Scientific America video if it hasn't already been listed

Hope this help :smile:
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1206/video/w...deoAsset:pbssaf1206&select3=104480&submit4=GO
 
whitewolf said:
You can take this or leave this as I have been advocating long distance focusing for about 5 years on the forums now, with not a single person commenting, so here goes a brief verson. There is a psysiological term also that I read about in 'Precision Pool'. Only one other book I know mentions this.
QUOTE]



With the many posts about the importance of center ball hit, i see way to many players focus on there cueball, and lose the goal/ pocket in there vision. its like cuting a shot into a blind pocket vs a straight in shot. Shots where you can't see the pocket are harder, its the same principle used.

after reading this is mainly what i kept from it:

- look at the angle of the shot when standing up. (aka like a camera filming a table from above), this will give a more 2d image, then a 3d with less distortion and will remove the railraod principle that joey talked about. A good exersice would be to set up a shot, take a guess at what the angle is, and then go measure it. Try to find a way to get more presice.

- quiet eye means, your eyes stand still. IF you had a laser beam, the beam would stay at the spot and NOT wonder around it. This is ALOT harder then most think, and i cannot stress this enough. IF you do it correctly, you are unable to see colour and shape of objects around you. If there is movement in your vision, your eyes WILL look at them for 0.1sec or so. You might not be aware of it because it goes to fast (like blinking your eyes, you dont see it happening), but you will, and it can break the information link that was giving information from your eyes to your brain (aka when you miss when someone walks right next to your table)

- focus on distant point wile getting in position. (I found out by testing that a point 2/3th in between the OB and the pocket gives me the best undistorted vision).
you dont want a fully focus OB but a verry blurry double pocket, and visa versa. The best option is to focus in between. I use a point on the table that lies straight on the line from OB to pocket. kinda like the lines in bowling. (this can take up to 4-6 seconds untill my feet, shoulder, arm and eyes are alined))
- once down in position, i look to my cb and align my tip right (1sec),
- then i look for 1sec at the contact point on the OB
- then i look back to the point on the line between OB and pocket where i first started till the ball is pocket.
- during the pauze and the final stroke my eyes only see the pocket, as that is my goal.


Joey on your respons about the quiet eye, you adress something thats is very important: i see to many people focus on the ob and where they aline there cue, to only look at angles , targetlines and pockets once they are in place. its the contrary that makes you feel like you KNOW where the pocket is, instead of guessing. The order is POCKET-OB-CB-OB-Target, not CB-OB-Pocket-OB-CB like many people do

Looking at lines and targets, and focusing on them while woving around is very important too. Dont just stand behind a shot, look at it, and when you walk away to do the shot look at something else. YOu should keep looking at it WHILE walking. You brain gets the information of 200 differente perspective images (just a guess) instead of just 200 image from the same perspective. This is what makes your feel like you know where the pocket is and you wont have to adjust anything once your bridgehand touches the felt.

I'm glad we are finally getting some good posts about eye's.
(I remember i saw some time ago a movie Nat. Geoi, that talked about this, and it was very interesting, just like the they had a very good movie on NAt. Geo about analysing martial arts, and the techniques that could be copied onto breaking techniques.) You would be surprised how much you could learn from other sports, that can be implemented in pool.

whitewolf: i had tried to adress this before too, and didnt get many good feedback either
some images i had made before:
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another comment from Frehlich about the poolstudy: very interesting:

"One thing I think it is important to mention about the study? when the highly-skilled players missed shots, it was because their quiet eye duration was significantly lower than when they successfully made their shots. Thus, the quiet eye duration not only differentiates the expert from the novice, but it also goes a long way in explaining why even the most expert of players miss their shots (especially shots they otherwise should have made).

Cheers!

Shane Frehlich"

this again proves that knowing what your eyes do should be AS IMPORTANT as the technique. She also speaks about how there is a link between quiet eye , combined with a 5 step pre-action routine that are nescesary to get into the "zone".

i dont know about your, i'm SURELY going to read alot about it, as i think they are really onto something, that will help my game alot more then a new shaft, or a new cue, or a new brand of chalk...
 
Solly,
If you are having trouble visualizing and potting long distance cut shots, you may want to envision a DARK GRAY - 2 1/4" WIDE LINE (the width of the cue ball) traveling toward the object ball and finally stopping at the point where the cue ball needs to make contact with the object ball.

Another technique on extreme cuts is to imagine the cue ball (ghost ball) sitting next to the object ball and shoot to that point.

The only problem with both of these techniques and for ALL techniques is that you must account for SQUERVE (cue ball squirt and cue ball swerve) as well as throw on the object ball. Throw in a little humidity and condition of the balls and you have a mathematical equation that Mike Page has difficulty with.

Anyway, I will continue reading your thread hoping to gain some insight into better potting. Other members are sure to offer their experiences and perspectives.

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
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