I noticed that the qualifying tournaments were race to 10, now the IPT is race to 8. Isn't that a little short for a game SO dependent on luck (the luck of the power break seems to determine the outcome of a significant percentage of games)? Very disappointing.
Race to 8?????
- Thread starter Williebetmore
- Start date
Qualifying tournaments were double elimination. This is round robin. The robin robin format alone throws a lot of the "luck" out the window.Williebetmore said:
And from the break and run statistics, I don't think this game is "SO" dependent on luck anyhow.
The tougher conditions are doing their jobs.
jsp said:Qualifying tournaments were double elimination. This is round robin. The robin robin format alone throws a lot of the "luck" out the window.
And from the break and run statistics, I don't think this game is "SO" dependent on luck anyhow.
There is a degree of luck in a single match though playing everyone in your group reduces it. The lessor players got some wins because of the race to 8 but they still had to play others in their group. This seems like a pretty good format.
The stronger players losing one match were able to play others to help build their points up.
jsp said:Qualifying tournaments were double elimination. This is round robin. The robin robin format alone throws a lot of the "luck" out the window.
And from the break and run statistics, I don't think this game is "SO" dependent on luck anyhow.
JSP,
Yes, I agree that the round robin format is great.
Everytime the "luck of the power break" gets mentioned, someone always brings up "break and runs." That, however, is not what I am referring to; I am referring to the spread of the table after the power break determining the eventual winner of that rack (whether by break & run or otherwise).
At an IPT qualifier, you could take a look at the table after the opening break and very accurately predict the winner of the rack (regardless of who was playing) - a very common situation in both 9-ball and 8-ball when played by champions.
In a recent match against a top IPT'er, I won 3 games in a row (alternate break), where this player had NO CHANCE to win any of the 3 games (believe me, I'm no threat to beat him in any way in the long run); just based on the spread after the opening break. A game that allows me to beat a champion (or at least beat him 3 games in a race to 8) has some flaws as a measure of skill.
In any case, don't get me wrong, I still like watching it; and I still believe that the best players will still do very well. I guess I just hate losing 14.1 as the "championship game" - I firmly believe that on tough equipment it does the best job of differentiating players based on their skill level.
Plus ..
I think the qualifiers were geared that way to 'insure' that the strongest players would emerge out of them, that they were really 'qualified' for the tour to begin with.
Once there, the round robin format is tough, and all things considered, such as time needed, maybe extra personnel, player fatigue, scheduling, etc., I think the race to 8 is long enough to establish a winner for 8 ball.
I am wondering though how fatigue will play a part in the tournament.
One, the day 2 winners will not get a day's break (do they?), plus the fact that anyone over 50 will just not have the stamina and concentration abilities that they had when they were 30, plus the consecutive long days they have to put in at the table, and the pressure also.
I think the qualifiers were geared that way to 'insure' that the strongest players would emerge out of them, that they were really 'qualified' for the tour to begin with.
Once there, the round robin format is tough, and all things considered, such as time needed, maybe extra personnel, player fatigue, scheduling, etc., I think the race to 8 is long enough to establish a winner for 8 ball.
I am wondering though how fatigue will play a part in the tournament.
One, the day 2 winners will not get a day's break (do they?), plus the fact that anyone over 50 will just not have the stamina and concentration abilities that they had when they were 30, plus the consecutive long days they have to put in at the table, and the pressure also.
This is an important observation. B&R percentages appear to be actually LOWER than is the case in many 9 ball tournaments; the best percentages so far hovering around the 25% mark according to the IPT site. Past winners of the U.S. Open 9 ball for instance, averaged running out from their break a third of the time; that is, 33.3%.jsp said:And from the break and run statistics, I don't think this game is "SO" dependent on luck anyhow.
I know it's early to really make a definitive generalization. But things are starting to look grim for the "8-ball-is-too-easy-cuz-you-can-shoot-any-ball" crowd.
lewdo26 said:This is an important observation. B&R percentages appear to be actually LOWER than is the case in many 9 ball tournaments; the best percentages so far hovering around the 25% mark according to the IPT site. Past winners of the U.S. Open 9 ball for instance, averaged running out from their break a third of the time; that is, 33.3%.
I know it's early to really make a definitive generalization. But things are starting to look grim for the "8-ball-is-too-easy-cuz-you-can-shoot-any-ball" crowd.
I wish they kept track of ERO's as well or instead of Break and Runs. That would give us an idea of how the tight pockets are affecting the runouts. It may be that it is harder to sink a ball on the break with the slow cloth and tight pockets but then the runout percentage after the break might be where we would expect.
I find that on a slow bar table with dead rails my percentage of sinking a ball on the break goes down but the shots after the break are about the same.
Statistics can hide quite a bit (sexy girl in a bathing suit). You must look at the field when comparing %'s. The IPT has Pros, Strong A, A and B players playing. You can not compare this to the US Open were most are pros and very strong A's.lewdo26 said:This is an important observation. B&R percentages appear to be actually LOWER than is the case in many 9 ball tournaments; the best percentages so far hovering around the 25% mark according to the IPT site. Past winners of the U.S. Open 9 ball for instance, averaged running out from their break a third of the time; that is, 33.3%.
I know it's early to really make a definitive generalization. But things are starting to look grim for the "8-ball-is-too-easy-cuz-you-can-shoot-any-ball" crowd.
I stand by 8 ball will undoubtedly yield a much higher percent of runs than 9 even with the more difficult table standards for the IPT. Wait until the last few matches and compare those to the last few in the Open. Also, I'm not sure if the Open uses alternate breaks or not, if this is the case then expect alternate as a disadvantage to break & run.
Just some more thoughts here.
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The Open does not feature alternate breaks. I said it's still early to tell. We'll see in the latter rounds, but already players like Antonio Lining and Souquet have played. And they haven't gone past the 3-0 mark in B&R%. And that is CONSISTENT with the percentages at the KOH tournament, which was an invitational chock full of world-beaters and world-beaters only.pete lafond said:
I do expect the percentages to go up, but I think it'll surprise a lot of people that they won't go up as much as they expected. That 8 ball is TOO EASY is a prejudice and nothing more, IMO.
The IPT is using some very weird statistics. B&R out of total games played (highest 37.5%) and B&R out of games won (highest 26.67%). B&R% out of total games played should be the smaller number shouldn't it?
I think they have the stats backwards.
They should be keeping track of B&R%(where they only count when the player breaks) and also EROs (when the other player breaks and doesn't make a ball or fouls).
I think they have the stats backwards.
They should be keeping track of B&R%(where they only count when the player breaks) and also EROs (when the other player breaks and doesn't make a ball or fouls).
Point taken Willie-man.Williebetmore said:
Although I do disagree with you somewhat. I've always said that in 8ball (not 9ball), if there are clusters or problem balls that must be solved in order to run out, the better player will generally win that rack, regardless of who is currently standing at the table.
Of course if it's a totally open rack, the person at the table is the huge favorite. At this level the player at the table will run out an open rack more than half the time. Though, the current stats don't indicate an open rack the majority of the time.
Question, for those 3 games you won against the IPTer, did you run those racks out?
lewdo26 said:
Right. I would never say any game is too easy in pool. I think 8 ball is easier than 9 by a little though I believe 10 ball should be the game with "Call ball".
Oh, I get what EROs are now. Thanks. However, we don't really have a ERO stat for the U.S. Open 9 ball, and it'd be difficult to make a comparison.mnShooter said:
I think simple B&R% should give us an initial clue as to whether 8 ball is SO much easier for the pros than 9 ball is (as the skeptics claim) since we got the 33% B&R average from the U.S. Open.
P.S. I don't have a CLUE as to what B&Rs out of games won might mean??? A B&R by definition wins you the game, right?
lewdo26 said:
An ERO occurs when the player goes to the table for the first time in the game when there are fifteen balls on the table and runs it out. It occurs when the breaker sinks a ball and then runs out the table or when the breaker comes up dry and his opponent runs out.
Sorry, I should remember that not everyone plays in leagues and that different leagues use different acronyms.
jsp said:
JSP,
Did I run the racks?? Boy did I (tight pockets, slow nap cloth - my first time on such equipment)!!!! Of course, I'm not sure if they were tough runouts, or whether I just made them tough.
No disagreement here on the "problem racks" - the better player does have an advantage, and your observation is very accurate. At the IPT level, though, there are a LOT of world-beaters. There are an AWFUL LOT of racks won by the first player to the table with an open shot.
While I still think race to 8 is pretty dang short (who here would bet a grand on a race to 8 with someone close to their skill level?), I DO enjoy watching it.
I don't think "break and run percentages" are of much importance to my stated opinion.
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