Rank of DigiBall Features

[nataddrho]

I am marketing the DigiBall as a training ball, but in reality it has functions beyond just training.

If you could, please sort this list in order of what you find most useful for yourself, and please also post your Fargo rating.

• Shot Clock: Counts down while cue ball is motionless. Adjustable timer from 15 seconds up to a few minutes. Makes optional voice announcement when time expires.
• Clock English: Displays the English used as represented by the time an hour hand on a clock is pointing. Top spin is 12:00, right spin is 3:00, bottom left is 5:30 etc. I find this very useful during my pre-shot routine, where I will determine in my head what English I make, and then see how close I actually come. This also has the option to be announced outloud, or Bluetoothed to your headphones so you don't have to even look at your phone.
• Spin: Displays spin magnitude in RPM, from 0 to >1000 RPM.
• Shot Speed / Break Speed: Displays break speed in mph, kph, ft/s, etc.
• Tip Position: Displays the exact tip contact point on the cue ball. Also displays where the cue tip center was based on user defined cue tip width (11.8mm, 12mm etc) and tip radius (nickel, dime, etc). Shown graphically and as Percent From Center %
• Rifle Pattern: Hit the same shot over and over again and mark the tip position for each shot. Displays a statistical spread like you would see if you shot a target with a rifle. This is more of a training feature, but can be useful for playing real games. I use it for 9-ball sometimes. Can mark misses as a different color.
• Drag Coefficient: Ability to measure cue ball drag, (draw shot spin deceleration). May be useful for determining speed of cloth
• Rolling Coefficient: Ability to measure cue ball rolling deceleration. May be useful for cloth speed determination... needs to be cleaned? Important for carom.
• Micro-jump identification: Tiny ball jumps can be identified during a break shot, for example. Too many jumps may mean you are hitting down on the ball and losing energy. Should have one tiny jump that lands right before the head ball in the rack.
• Spin Rate Factor: Displays the spin/speed rate in radians/radius ratio. A perfectly hit top spin shot will have a ratio of 1.00, which means that the ball makes one full revolution for every full circumference it travels (2*pi*r). This could be useful for players to learn not to hit shots so hard and to increase their SRF like Tyler Styler and other pros recommend.
• Rail / Ball hit first: You can "kind of" tell if a rail or a ball was hit first, unless they are less than about 10ms from each other.
• Measure Induced Spin: If you use the DigiBall as an object ball, you can measure the spin caused by a collision. Kind of neat.
• Export Data: You can Share data to yourself and analyze it in Excel or whatever else you want to do.
• Video Review: You can sync the data with a video and display a graphic and information about the shot. The video can be just yourself, or an entire match with someone else, or even a tournament. I think this would be great for post commentation in games like 1 pocket where the commentator can talk about types of shots and how the player hit them.

So after writing all of this, it is apparent that this is more of a "pool player's toy" or even a "tool", than it is just a training device.

Trolling responses will be downvoted. Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think the ones I'd use most during practice sessions are: 1) Tip Position, 2) Rifle Pattern. I could see myself setting up trouble shots for a few minutes each and looking at these two.

The other info I think is sort of a byproduct of tip position, so I'd rather have the position to keep it simpler.

4) Export data I may be interested because I like to analyze stuff, but others might not. 3) Video Review sounds interesting also, if its easy to use.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Oh, not listed, but I'd personally be MOST interested out of anything in a rail rebound tester. One that could work for kick shots, bank shots, but especially 1, 2, and 3 rail position shots where the CB has the highest spin to speed ratio on the first rail compared to any other situation.

 

[DeadStick]

Suggest an API easy enough for the big tournaments to use (start with Matchroom) so if they use your cueball, they can display a small image of the CB in the corner of their broadcast showing where the CB was hit, what its speed was, and spin RPMs on each shot.

Perhaps you can make an OBS plugin for this if they’re using OBS. Even if they aren’t, an OBS plugin would be cool for amateur pool streamers/instructors to use.

 

[justnum]

Just sell it as a spying device for law enforcement.

tracking or microphone

can the app load spyware onto a payload

 

[Oikawa]

I think the ones I'd use most during practice sessions are: 1) Tip Position, 2) Rifle Pattern. I could see myself setting up trouble shots for a few minutes each and looking at these two.

The other info I think is sort of a byproduct of tip position, so I'd rather have the position to keep it simpler.

4) Export data I may be interested because I like to analyze stuff, but others might not. 3) Video Review sounds interesting also, if its easy to use.

Agreed for 1 and 2, tip position and rifle pattern feels most useful for me too. (600-650ish fargo)

 

[DaWizard]

Congrats!!
I'm a sucker for stats and would love to see this in big tournaments.

I reckon this is also a powerful tool in practicing artistic billiards.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Tip position, rifle pattern, speed to spin ratio. Those are the three features I would use first. I’ve been working on a couple of shots that require close to max spin and slow speed, getting as close to the miscue limit as I can. 500 fargo

 

[Vahmurka]

Here are my most rated values of such a device:

• Tip Position
• Rifle Pattern
• Export Data
  First two factors would be of extreme help in my work as a part-time pool instructor. The export function is sort of a must have with such tools in modern age of tech and gadgets.
  
  (I would have gracefully become one of beta testers with my students (and myself, lol) but you noted you are probably not going for any testing of a kind. Anyway, you know my intentions )
  
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Measure Induced Spin.
  This is not as necessary but could come handy when explaining collision-induced throw and how to compensate for it with a helping English.
  
  
• Shot Speed / Break Speed
  Good for advanced players working on their break control.
  
  
• Video Review
  This option could be interesting for post-game analysis, and also for commentators in-play, as you mentioned, but the players have to accept using such a cue ball (and they are usually very suspicious to these things).
  
  
• Rail / Ball hit first
  This could save some time and effort at many major events, but again, the players and organizers should accept such a piece of equipment. Actually, as long as there are some ML models which could serve the same goal with a camera only, this option might be not required with DigiBall.

Have to disagree with your take on micro-jumps on break shots, more than one does not necessarily mean the shot was worse than with one jump only.
SRF - dunno how Styer thinks it could be useful, if we talk about exact measurement. There are enough positions to come up with to practice powerful stroke combined with top spin, and telling any number from the other won't help during the game better than a mere ability to perform and mere knowledge of how to do that.

Could you explain drag coefficient? Say, if I shoot a stop shot from 3 or 4 diamonds distance on different cloth - would the DC numbers be different? Of course I will have to adjust speed or cb point hit, or maybe both.

 

[nataddrho]

Here are my most rated values of such a device:

• Tip Position
• Rifle Pattern
• Export Data
  First two factors would be of extreme help in my work as a part-time pool instructor. The export function is sort of a must have with such tools in modern age of tech and gadgets.
  
  (I would have gracefully become one of beta testers with my students (and myself, lol) but you noted you are probably not going for any testing of a kind. Anyway, you know my intentions )
  
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
• Measure Induced Spin.
  This is not as necessary but could come handy when explaining collision-induced throw and how to compensate for it with a helping English.
  
  
• Shot Speed / Break Speed
  Good for advanced players working on their break control.
  
  
• Video Review
  This option could be interesting for post-game analysis, and also for commentators in-play, as you mentioned, but the players have to accept using such a cue ball (and they are usually very suspicious to these things).
  
  
• Rail / Ball hit first
  This could save some time and effort at many major events, but again, the players and organizers should accept such a piece of equipment. Actually, as long as there are some ML models which could serve the same goal with a camera only, this option might be not required with DigiBall.

Have to disagree with your take on micro-jumps on break shots, more than one does not necessarily mean the shot was worse than with one jump only.
SRF - dunno how Styer thinks it could be useful, if we talk about exact measurement. There are enough positions to come up with to practice powerful stroke combined with top spin, and telling any number from the other won't help during the game better than a mere ability to perform and mere knowledge of how to do that.

Could you explain drag coefficient? Say, if I shoot a stop shot from 3 or 4 diamonds distance on different cloth - would the DC numbers be different? Of course I will have to adjust speed or cb point hit, or maybe both.

Explanation of drag coefficient:

I attached two photos. In each one please refer to the blue line in the lower third of the screen. This is the ball’s spin magnitude over time. I had to do this on carpet because I am not at a pool hall right now, so it looks a little bumpy.

The first photo (IMG_3011) I hit a draw shot. You can see the ball spin decelerates linearly and then increases again after the ball turns over (backspin to forward spin). The forward spin increases until it is rolling without slipping, and then starts to decelerate again due to rolling friction.

The slope, in "rotations per minute per minute", or rpm/m, is a measurement of the friction between the surface of the ball and the cloth as it goes from slipping to rolling. A cleaner ball and slick cloth produce lower values of rpm/m. On my carpet it is 16.4 rpm/m.

The second picture (IMG_3012) shows a shot I hit with top-spin. The ball immediately rolls without slipping. The slope here is a measurement of the rolling friction of the cloth. On my carpet it is -1.4 rpm/m.

Maybe this is useful for someone interested in cloth conditions or cloth speeds between tables? Maybe it can tell when a table needs to be vacuumed or cleaned, or cloth changed? Maybe it just demonstrates physics to beginners? I don't know, but the information is available.

 

[nataddrho]

Suggest an API easy enough for the big tournaments to use (start with Matchroom) so if they use your cueball, they can display a small image of the CB in the corner of their broadcast showing where the CB was hit, what its speed was, and spin RPMs on each shot.

Perhaps you can make an OBS plugin for this if they’re using OBS. Even if they aren’t, an OBS plugin would be cool for amateur pool streamers/instructors to use.

Thats a great idea, but we can only show spin angle and rpm as a real time image in the corner. In order to display speed, tip position and more, someone has to input the distance between balls and then select the impact time from the data. I made a program that already does this, but it is done in video post processing, not live. I don’t think that live broadcasters will have time to draw a line on their screen between CB and OB for every shot manually, unless it is a replay.

We can make a special replay module, but it looks very complicated…

 

[justnum]

Use a cloud service for post processing this way you can develop your network app traffic. And increase user activity.

No one needs the graphics composite quickly. This is not a life death situation. The lag should be worth it.

I am referring to making easier for broadcaster to discuss the table with AI analytics.

 

[DeadStick]

Thats a great idea, but we can only show spin angle and rpm as a real time image in the corner. In order to display speed, tip position and more, someone has to input the distance between balls and then select the impact time from the data. I made a program that already does this, but it is done in video post processing, not live. I don’t think that live broadcasters will have time to draw a line on their screen between CB and OB for every shot manually, unless it is a replay.

We can make a special replay module, but it looks very complicated…

I was thinking initial velocity - same as the real time displays of golf ball velocity on PGA Tour events. I thought you would be able to measure that, along with calculating tip position (based on spin axis, rpm, and cb velocity) without user input, no?

 

[nataddrho]

I was thinking initial velocity - same as the real time displays of golf ball velocity on PGA Tour events. I thought you would be able to measure that, along with calculating tip position (based on spin axis, rpm, and cb velocity) without user input, no?

No, user input is needed for cue ball speed, which also gives you percentage from center (tip position). Without it you only know you hit the ball along at a certain spin angle, like somewhere along the hand of a clock. You don’t know how far from center without the velocity part of the equation.

Golf ball velocity is measured with a camera or radar, where the camera or radar is fixed in space. It is external observer to the golf ball.

The DigiBall has a sensor that is internal, and not fixed to anything in space. Therefore it has no reference to calculate absolute position or speed by itself, but is excellent at calculating spin angle.

If the user selects the distance before the shot, and then selects the time after the shot, they get a very accurate distance/time which is more accurate than a radar or camera system… but isn’t hands free.

 

[DeadStick]

No, user input is needed for cue ball speed, which also gives you percentage from center (tip position). Without it you only know you hit the ball along at a certain spin angle, like somewhere along the hand of a clock. You don’t know how far from center without the velocity part of the equation.

Golf ball velocity is measured with a camera or radar, where the camera or radar is fixed in space. It is external observer to the golf ball.

The DigiBall has a sensor that is internal, and not fixed to anything in space. Therefore it has no reference to calculate absolute position or speed by itself, but is excellent at calculating spin angle.

If the user selects the distance before the shot, and then selects the time after the shot, they get a very accurate distance/time which is more accurate than a radar or camera system… but isn’t hands free.

Darn, that’s unfortunate. I was thinking that an accelerometer could provide the velocity by itself. I’m assuming it provides acceleration - couldn’t velocity be calculated from that and spin?

 

[nataddrho]

Darn, that’s unfortunate. I was thinking that an accelerometer could provide the velocity by itself. I’m assuming it provides acceleration - couldn’t velocity be calculated from that and spin?

That what everyone thinks. But no, there are many problems with that. The biggest is accumulation error from integration, massive sensor saturation during the 5000 G impulse and the extremely short acceleration time of an impact.

It is hard enough to measure even which direction the impulse is coming from.

If it was something like a ball slowly rolling down a hill then it would be much easier, but pool provides the worst situation.

A quick search for high range accelerometers and I found this.

The excerpt from the description illustrates that most applications don’t cater to pool-ball 1000-5000g level accelerations:

“At the reasonable cost of some signal noise at lower “human-level” accelerations, the H3LIS331 can measure up to ±400g! The mind boggles at trying to think of what would need to measure that much acceleration. Perhaps you bought a surplus Sprint missile to start your own space program, or maybe you have an idea for a rocket sled based pizza delivery startup. The sky is the limit!”