rank/rating.......APA/BCA......PR Question

IA8baller

IA8baller

Family man.
Silver Member
I'm curious about the APA rating system. How is it figured and how would it relate to the system I'm playing under? I play leagues locally here in SE Iowa and we have a PR system and we play BCA rules. We have a PR system (power rating) that is figured by the average amount of points you win each week playing a total of 3 games. The 8 ball is worth 2 points, and all others are worth 1. If you break/run on a game and your opponent has all 7 of his balls still on the table, you get 9 points, on a "perfect" night you could win 27 points maximum. Each player breaks one round, then racks the next, then the 3rd round is alternating breaks, so you will break either 1 or 2 times per night, depending on your position in the last round each week. We have 5 person teams and each player plays 3 matches against the same person that is lined up with them on the roster that particular night.

An "average" player would have a 6 or 7 PR, above average an 8 or 9, very good players will have a 10, 11, or 12 PR and great players would have a 12 or higher PR, with 14 or 15 PR being about as high as I've seen in these leagues, and those players that have 13 or 14 PR's are generally close to if not "Masters" type players. We have a lot of 3 to 5 PR players who are just the normal once/week ball bangers that are just out playing for the fun of it and don't take pool very seriously.

I am currently a solid 12 PR and am curious to know how our system stacks up against the APA system and what an average APA players rating is, what an above average APA players rating would normally be, and what great players APA ratings would be?

How is the APA rating figured, etc?

Thanks in advance for answers/explanations.
 
APA takes into account the number of defensive shots per inning, how many innings it takes before a win, and how much you win by I think. The exact formula is supposed to be a secret... and they do keep some parts of it pretty well hidden.

An average APA 9-ball player would probably be a 4. Good is 6 or 7 and the highest you can be is a 9. In 8-ball the highest is 8. If you suck bad enough you can go down to a zero I believe. You would probably be a 7 or 8 in APA.
 
Hierovision said:
APA takes into account the number of defensive shots per inning, how many innings it takes before a win, and how much you win by I think. The exact formula is supposed to be a secret... and they do keep some parts of it pretty well hidden.

An average APA 9-ball player would probably be a 4. Good is 6 or 7 and the highest you can be is a 9. In 8-ball the highest is 8. If you suck bad enough you can go down to a zero I believe. You would probably be a 7 or 8 in APA.
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Yep, it also takes into your account your best performance... not ur worst ones.
 
In Joliet IL

APA 8ball
2-3's below avg.
4-5's avg.
6-7's above avg.

APA 9ball
1-3's below avg.
4-5's avg.
6-8's above avg.
9's be happy if you get to shoot.
 
The APA is very protective of its Equalizer Handicapping system and would likely be very unhappy if something was posted here. What is used to determine one's handicap is fairly obvious: Innings, defensive shots, wins/losses. How that is used in their calculations is what is secret.

Understand, the reason why they have a formula is because the APA is meant to be run w/o constant-supervision. That is to say, rarely does an APA official actually see you play. Also understand that the vast majority of APA players (at least from what I've seen in the Northeast) play nothing BUT APA. There is a degree of obsessiveness among its members. Listening to the gossip is like watching an episode out of Lost. In fact, I think if they did do a television show on the APA, it might win Best Drama.

Regardless, small local leagues can use the APA as a guide but they don't necessarily have to try to mimic their every move. In fact, a small local league could probably create a more accurate rating system since there's far more intimiate knowledge of each player's ability.
 
Hierovision said:
An average APA 9-ball player would probably be a 4. Good is 6 or 7 and the highest you can be is a 9. In 8-ball the highest is 8. If you suck bad enough you can go down to a zero I believe. You would probably be a 7 or 8 in APA.
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8-ball handicaps go from 2 to 7, not up to 8 nor down to zero. :/

The big inherent weakness in the APA's handicap system (and in ANY national handicap system) is that your handicap is based on your results on the local level. That's not a problem until you leave the local area and match up with players/teams from other areas.

Let's say in your local league, you're an 5 in 8-ball. You do reasonably decent against the folks in your local league. Then you pick up and you move to another part of the country, and join a league there. Let's say the average level of play in that area is a few notches above the average level of play in your old area. You may be a 5 still, but compared to the folks in your new area, you play like a strong 3 or a weak 4.

Therein lies the issues with nationals - you have teams in areas that are, on average, populated by stronger players. The 3s in that area will be better players than the 3s in other areas, 4s the same, etc. and those teams will generally do better in nationals. Those are the same teams that get on the watch lists, get bumped up in handicap on the spot, and sometimes barred for a year or two. The irony is, when a player from one of these areas gets bumped up at nationals, and then they go home - suddenly they're at a disadvantage, because now they're back with the folks whose handicaps are still the same, and this player now has to give a game or two to other players of similar skill.

I have yet to come up with a way to do a truly national handicap system that is based solely on local results and have it result in fair matchups when players from varying areas match up. There's really no way to do it without taking national stats/averages into account when calculating individual handicaps - and you can't really do that fairly and evenly.

Without some sort of total rework of the APA handicap system, there will always be issues with underranked (and even overranked!) players/teams at nationals.
 
There are two 0's listed on my local league's website.. it must be because they haven't paid league dues yet or something. I don't play 8-ball in APA so thank you for clarifying the 2-7 thing and sorry for supplying incorrect information. I know it's 1-9 for 9-ball though... :)
 
Thanks for the responses. I think I have a grasp on what you are all saying. I was talking to a friend of mine about the APA who is heavily involved in the BCA here in Eastern Iowa and I had wondered why the APA hadn't gotten a foot-hold in this area (Cedar Rapids/Iowa City area) and we started discussing the APA's handicap/rating system and since neither of us has played under the APA system we didn't know for sure how it was figured up exactly.

We got into a discussion about the APA's system and wondered what would prevent players from dumping games to lower their rating on purpose to be able to go into a National event with a lower rating therefore increasing their odds at winning. Is this an issue? Does the APA have a way of dealing with this potential issue, if it is even an issue?

Sorry if I'm throwing out some questions that are a little touchy, but I'd rather have someone "in the know" answer than listening to hearsay and uneducated opinions, etc.

I heard "through the grapevine" that the APA was possibly going to be starting up in the Cedar Rapids area and I'd consider giving it a try to see if I liked their system and their organization. I'd like to up my game a notch and I'd like to attend some National events in the next few years and will most likely be looking at the BCA since I've been in their system before but I see Valley and the APA as being other possible options too so I'm trying to learn a little more about them. Thanks for your time guys, I appreciate it.

BTW.......I was on the team that took 4th at the Casino tournament @ Riverside Casino and Golf Resort in the Open team event and it was a blast. We were one of the local teams and it was a great experience to finally play against other guys/teams that play a great game. I loved playing some real competition for a change and I'm looking to do more of it in the future. It helps me really buckle down and concentrate on my game and I think I need more of that type of competition to improve my game.
 
to boil it down to the simplicity, basically the APA handicap system has some suit sitting in an office somewhere looking at sheets and picking numbers out of a hat. there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it and due to the points posting caps, isn't a league style a better player would want to participate in anyway. generally you end up sitting out alot, unless you have a team of 2s.
 
IA8baller said:
We got into a discussion about the APA's system and wondered what would prevent players from dumping games to lower their rating on purpose to be able to go into a National event with a lower rating therefore increasing their odds at winning. Is this an issue? Does the APA have a way of dealing with this potential issue, if it is even an issue?
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Yah, the way they deal with it is to bump people's handicaps up at nationals if their level of play warrants it, according to the refs. Unfortunately it's kinda "too late" for the teams these folks have already rolled through that year.

And I suppose, if you saw a local player obviously dumping, you *could* put a bug in the local league operator's ear, but I doubt this happens too often.

IA8baller said:
I heard "through the grapevine" that the APA was possibly going to be starting up in the Cedar Rapids area and I'd consider giving it a try to see if I liked their system and their organization. I'd like to up my game a notch and I'd like to attend some National events in the next few years and will most likely be looking at the BCA since I've been in their system before but I see Valley and the APA as being other possible options too so I'm trying to learn a little more about them. Thanks for your time guys, I appreciate it.
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APA leagues depend hugely on the local league operator. People buy exclusive franchises for an area, and they're the folks who can run APA leagues in that area. And considering the variance in human personalities, you can have a really great LO in one area and a really horrid one in the next. It just depends on who you get stuck with. :)

Thing is, if your level of play is high enough, I'd skip APA altogether and stick with BCA or VNEA. Those two systems are better suited for more serious players.
 
socks said:
to boil it down to the simplicity, basically the APA handicap system ... isn't a league style a better player would want to participate in anyway. generally you end up sitting out alot, unless you have a team of 2s.
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This is very true and needs to be re-stated. In the APA, you have a maximum of 23 (I think?) points per team. In my last APA situation, I got moved up to 7 the same week two of our other players got moved to 5. So now we've got 17 points between the three of us, that leaves six for the other two guys, and they're both 4's! We had to call one of the team members' wife to come in and play. I had to quit the team after this, basically. People generally don't go down in skill level in the APA.

If you're looking for _more_ competitive, stick with BCA and add Valley, but I'd say stay away from APA. You'll never keep a team together.

/rant

-s
 
socks said:
isn't a league style a better player would want to participate in anyway. generally you end up sitting out alot, unless you have a team of 2s.
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That's kind of what I was hearing from other sources as well. I was told the APA is better suited to the weekend warrior type of player that doesn't have the time for a lot of practice or the will to do so. I'm not saying that there aren't some very good players in the APA because I'm sure there is, I just don't know anything about it since I haven't been exposed to it in any way.

I'm just searching for my best options at this point to increase my playing time/experience with better players w/o having to deal with the sharking/money game/gambling type of games that are out there. I like the tournament/leagues format the best that have multiple games, longer races for the match/etc. I hate the 2 out of 3 type small bar tournaments that are played on junk tables where too much luck/bad table rolls etc. come into play. I need to play on better tables against equal or better players to improve my own game I think. Any suggestions to do just that here in Eastern Iowa?
 
What is VNEA? Valley?

OK, I seen the edit, thanks for all the info guys. I'll be looking into Valley for sure.

I'm going to finally get a little more serious about my game and transform my garage into my pool room so here is another question. Are most of the Valley events played on 7' tables? I'm trying to decide if I want to get an 8' or a 7' table to put in my garage. I know where I can get a good deal on an 8' Valley coin-op table but I'm thinking a 7' table might be the better choice since I know BCA State events are played on 7' tables, how about Valley?
 
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ACS (American Cue Sports) is good also. they use the same format as BCA for the most part.
 
once again...totally misinterpreted information

socks said:
to boil it down to the simplicity, basically the APA handicap system has some suit sitting in an office somewhere looking at sheets and picking numbers out of a hat. there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it and due to the points posting caps, isn't a league style a better player would want to participate in anyway. generally you end up sitting out alot, unless you have a team of 2s.
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The APA handicap system is not some secret formula. :rolleyes: It is a computer software program that takes into account innings played, defensive shots marked, and the skill levels between the two players. A player's SL is based on the 10 best matches, out of the most recent 20 matches played...so it is continually being adjusted to minute degrees (which may or may not have an effect on the SL moving up or down). It keeps data on league match play, tournament match play, and even singles or doubles match play. All info is recorded and kept on file. Handicaps are kept in a national database (as well as local), and updated on a weekly basis. The software program analyzes the weekly data, and prints up the next week's scoresheets. There are many expert players that participate in the APA, but it is true that the league is geared more to the 2's, 3's, & 4's. BCA allows 5 expert players to play together...APA does not. BCA handicaps are not utililzed at Nationals...APA handicaps are the same from local to national level. It's pretty simple.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
IA8baller said:
Are most of the Valley events played on 7' tables?
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ALL of'em are. And they're played on... here it comes... Valley tables. :P

Valley league is Valley's way of driving business to their vendors, pretty much.
 
ScottW said:
ALL of'em are. And they're played on... here it comes... Valley tables. :P

Valley league is Valley's way of driving business to their vendors, pretty much.
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I figured they were all played on Valley tables, I just wasn't sure if sometimes they were played on 8' tables, my local bar has 3 8' Valley tables in it that I play on most of the time. I'll definitely be getting myself a 7' Valley table to put in my garage then. Thanks for the help guys.
 
I wouldn't just get a 7-footer because of league. I imagine you'd be better suited, in the long run, getting a full-size table. If you really want to improve your game, you're going to improve to the point that you leave leagues behind anyhow.
 
ScottW said:
I wouldn't just get a 7-footer because of league. I imagine you'd be better suited, in the long run, getting a full-size table. If you really want to improve your game, you're going to improve to the point that you leave leagues behind anyhow.
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Good point but for now I only have the option of getting a 7 or an 8 foot table, I don't have the room needed for a 9' in my 1 stall garage unfortunately. I'm planning on selling my home in a few years and one of the "definite" requirements of my next home is going to be having the space needed for a 9' table, if not a couple of tables.

My long term plan is to eventually become a Master/Teacher. Just the thought of teaching my sons the game and others who have the desire to truly learn and appreciate the game is very exciting and to me would be very, very rewarding. We need more young players who can appreciate and love this game in the future.
 
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