Ray Schuler cues signed the the forearm vs the ones that are signed in the butt?

J

justinb386

Banned
Does anyone here know much about Schuler cues?

I found one that I am interested in, but I do not know what it is worth.

It looks to be a completely wrapless ebony with a grey stained forearm, with 4 (ebony?) points with what looks like ivory spear tips on top of each point, and ivory diamond shaped inlays at the bottom of each point.

I have been looking at a lot of Schuler cues, but can't find any that were signed "Ray Schuler" in the forearm (between the points on the one I am interested in).

All of the ones I could find online were signed in the butt (near the rubber bumper).

Does anyone know anything about the ones that are not signed near the rubber bumper, but were signed much higher (in the forearm area)?

Were these a production line, or were they custom made (sorry if this is a stupid question)?

What are the values (or original retail values) of these cues that have the "Ray Schuler" signature in the forearm, and not the butt?

I hear that Schuler cues are great players, and would really like to try one out, but do not want to over pay for one (not sure what they are worth in todays used cue market).

Thanks
 
I highly doubt it makes any difference. The only ones I've seen in person were signed on the forearm.
 
The ones that were more geared towards production and produced after his death were signed "SLC".

The original Schulers are worth slightly more but condition is everything as most of his cues have warping and finish issues.

ChicagoRJ here has a bit more knowledge about the Schuler line. Might want to send him a PM.
 
Contact Noel Mendoza. You can find him on Facebook. He worked under Ray Schuler for many years and will set you straight with any questions you have.
 
Okay, well this is the cue that I am interested in making an offer on?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171362007055?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Does it look to be an original Schuler, or does that say SLC next to his signature? Are the SLC Schuler cues not original (but production cues)? Are they not worth much? What do you guys think that cue on ebay is worth? I heard that Schuler cues are nice playing cues, and would like to try one out, but do not want to over pay, and would like to be able to get my investment back out of it if I am not happy with the cue. I do not really like the looks of it, but I might love the way it hits (and that is most important to me). Thanks.
 
Appears to be after Ray's passing

The picture on ebay appears to have SLC after Ray's name. So its a newer cue. Likely made my Noel who made most of his cues and worked for Ray for years.

I hope this helps.

Ted
 
I spoke with Dave Jacoby just over a year ago, and at that time they were in the process of acquiring the rights to use the Schuler name for a high end line of cues they were going to produce. Dave mentioned Terry Trim, from whom I believe he was buying the rights to the name, but never Noel Mendoza. My understanding is there are Schuler SLC cues made by Noel.

Here is the gist of what I was told by Dave Jacoby:

Original Schulers are signed "By Ray Schuler." When Ray died, Terry Trim released cues as "Ray Schuler SLC." Apparently, some of these cues (maybe all, I don't know) had parts made by Ray, but were completed after his death. Maybe Noel was commissioned by Terry to build them? At the point I talked to him, Jacoby was doing some of the repair work on Schuler SLC cues. In order to distinguish their cues/parts/work from the other SLC cues, Jacoby underlined SLC.

So, my understanding:

By Ray Schuler is an Original
Ray Schuler SLC is a Terry Trim cue completed some time after Ray died in 2002
Ray Schuler SLC with an underlined SLC is a Jacoby

If anyone knows more or otherwise I'd be interested in hearing.
 
Your best bet is to check out Noel Mendoza...

Noel worked under Ray and is the man for a Schuler cue.
 
ScottK said:
I spoke with Dave Jacoby just over a year ago, and at that time they were in the process of acquiring the rights to use the Schuler name for a high end line of cues they were going to produce. Dave mentioned Terry Trim, from whom I believe he was buying the rights to the name, but never Noel Mendoza. My understanding is there are Schuler SLC cues made by Noel.


.
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Noel was not commissioned by Jacoby or anyone else to build Schuler cues after Ray's death. Noel got written permission from Ray's wife to continue to use the Schuler name, and usually signed the cues he built "Ray Schuler by Noel Mendoza"

But his work is below average, and that was part of the problem at Schuler when he was there. He does not age his wood, it sits in his garage which is not heated, air conditioned or have any other humidity control device in the general area. I'm sure some others do it that way too, but I'm pretty sure the good ones don't. So, when your Schuler warps down the road, you will know why. Yeah, I'm sure some folks lucked out, but many, many did not.

If you want a shaft, he pulls the shaft wood right out of the box it came in, that sits in the corner of his dirty little garage, and builds you a shaft. He orders all his wood only when he needs it, not a day before. He first has to knock that inch of dirt and sawdust off his equipment before he starts a new project...... He could be a candidate for "cuemaker rescue" if there was such a show :)

And if folks think I'm saying something that I have NOT already said directly to his face, you would be wrong. I would not allow anyone I know have this man build and/or refinish a cue for them unless I really did not like them.

I don't think he does this intentionally, I truly believe he just never took the time to understand wood, like a true craftsman would understand that is making their livelihood off their products they sell, and want to become experts in their field. Nor bother learning how to run a cue shop and keeping it clean so the product is not touching one dirty thing while it waits to go onto the next step in the process.

It's like anything else, there are carpenters who would not know a "mitre cut" from a "cheek cut", but they are still on the job somewhere, not because they are intentional hacks, but because they never took the time to learn what they were doing, and nobody told them what they were doing was wrong.

I'm not intentionally try to slam him, and I'm trying my best to be nice about it, but these are the facts. Sorry if anyone is offended by me telling the truth. But guys like this don't help the industry, they set it back, and that is not good for anyone imho.

PS: However, I would like to add the guy is NOT dishonest and if you pay him, he will build you a cue. He seems like a decent fellow, a good father, and probably an OK dude from what I could tell on the several occasions we met, very personable, and I got a a "tour" of his garage/shop. And that explained a lot to why my cue looked as bad as it did.
 
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jacoby made underlined slc

don'rt no about noel, but the jacoby made i bought. good news, cue straight. points not. bad news shaft and butt nicked, bubbles on butt, ferrule severly cracked after a couple years use. never had an original schuler ferrule crack. or any other ferrule,

bought a wonderul original schuler from cuesblues. take your chances with a jacoby.
 
I have several Schuler cues signed by Ray on the butt. I have had zero issues with either the finish or warping with any of them (including the shafts). And they play great. I've no experience with the SLC's made after Ray's passing, except I bought an SLC extension which works fine with the original Schuler cues.
 
doubletrouble said:
don'rt no about noel, but the jacoby made i bought. good news, cue straight. points not. bad news shaft and butt nicked, bubbles on butt, ferrule severly cracked after a couple years use. never had an original schuler ferrule crack. or any other ferrule,

bought a wonderul original schuler from cuesblues. take your chances with a jacoby.
Click to expand...

Glad you like it

I have a friend here in Denver that has an original By Ray Schuler with the signature in-between the points, along with a signature from an famous 3C player named "Alan Gilbert".
Randy always said that his Schuler was worth enough to put his kids through college.
I never debated the value ($500 max) until the day he called me trying to sell it.
He got really quiet when I told him the actual value, and I don't think we have talked since.
 
KRJ said:
Noel was not commissioned by Jacoby or anyone else to build Schuler cues after Ray's death. Noel got written permission from Ray's wife to continue to use the Schuler name, and usually signed the cues he built "Ray Schuler by Noel Mendoza"

But his work is below average, and that was part of the problem at Schuler when he was there. He does not age his wood, it sits in his garage which is not heated, air conditioned or have any other humidity control device in the general area. I'm sure some others do it that way too, but I'm pretty sure the good ones don't. So, when your Schuler warps down the road, you will know why. Yeah, I'm sure some folks lucked out, but many, many did not.

If you want a shaft, he pulls the shaft wood right out of the box it came in, that sits in the corner of his dirty little garage, and builds you a shaft. He orders all his wood only when he needs it, not a day before. He first has to knock that inch of dirt and sawdust off his equipment before he starts a new project...... He could be a candidate for "cuemaker rescue" if there was such a show :)

And if folks think I'm saying something that I have NOT already said directly to his face, you would be wrong. I would not allow anyone I know have this man build and/or refinish a cue for them unless I really did not like them.

I don't think he does this intentionally, I truly believe he just never took the time to understand wood, like a true craftsman would understand that is making their livelihood off their products they sell, and want to become experts in their field. Nor bother learning how to run a cue shop and keeping it clean so the product is not touching one dirty thing while it waits to go onto the next step in the process.

It's like anything else, there are carpenters who would not know a "mitre cut" from a "cheek cut", but they are still on the job somewhere, not because they are intentional hacks, but because they never took the time to learn what they were doing, and nobody told them what they were doing was wrong.

I'm not intentionally try to slam him, and I'm trying my best to be nice about it, but these are the facts. Sorry if anyone is offended by me telling the truth. But guys like this don't help the industry, they set it back, and that is not good for anyone imho.

PS: However, I would like to add the guy is NOT dishonest and if you pay him, he will build you a cue. He seems like a decent fellow, a good father, and probably an OK dude from what I could tell on the several occasions we met, very personable, and I got a a "tour" of his garage/shop. And that explained a lot to why my cue looked as bad as it did.
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I know this is an old thread, but when I saw this post I had to respond.

I have not seen Noel's work as a solo cue maker. But he was very good when he worked for Ray. Noel does not have the same shop equipment that Ray had. As such, there can and will be some variation. The process used by Ray, Ivan Lee his general manager, and me when I apprenticed under Ray and Ivan and worked with Noel, has not changed much. As I said, accommodations had to be made for differences in equipment, but that's about it.

As for problems at Schuler - there weren't any. Rays cues were great, some say the best available at the time. Ray was the only one, despite the claims of other cue makers, who made a truly interchangeable shaft. I have some Schuler cues that are around 30 years old and they are straight as an arrow and the finish is still shiny and bright. Of course, I take care of my cues, but there has to be some quality there to begin with if you expect it to last 30 years or more. I have seen quality issues with other cue makers. I have seen points drop out on a hard break shot. Look at the fore-wrap and see if the points are all the same length. On many cues they will all be different, but not on a Schuler. Do the inlays in the fore-wrap and after-wrap lineup? They will on a Schuler.

Regarding aged lumber, I don't know of a single cue maker who devotes warehouse space and time to aging his own wood. Like most other cue makers, the wood ordered is aged to the standards and expectations of the buyer. The post above makes it sound like Noel is ordering freshly cut virgin lumber and making cues out of it. He is ordering aged cured lumber just like every other cue maker. The only disadvantage Noel has is that he won't get the highest quality lumber unless he orders bulk, which he doesn't do, or pays a premium for it which he would then have to pass on to the customer.

Most of Rays cues were signed on the after-wrap. Some were signed between the points on the fore-wrap. Ray would chew you out if you called it a forearm. "There is nothing there that looks like an arm," he would growl. He was very specific about it: tip, ferrule, shaft, joint, fore-wrap, wrap, after-wrap, butt. Points may have had veneers but most did not. Ray always signed, "By Ray Schuler". When Ray passed the shop was sold and cues were made with the SLC signature.

The people who bought the shop deleted all the machine code and did it their way. That was when the problems began in my opinion. In all the years I worked for Ray and all the years I knew him and Ivan I only heard one complaint from a customer. There was a tiny crack in the fore-wrap just off the wrap itself. It was part of a very small knot in the figure of the wood. Ivan did the repair. You literally, and I mean literally, could not see the repair when he was finished. It was one of the most brilliant repair jobs I have ever seen - er, not seen...
 
justjames said:
.... snip

Most of Rays cues were signed on the after-wrap. Some were signed between the points on the fore-wrap. Ray would chew you out if you called it a forearm. "There is nothing there that looks like an arm," he would growl. He was very specific about it: tip, ferrule, shaft, joint, fore-wrap, wrap, after-wrap, butt. Points may have had veneers but most did not. Ray always signed, "By Ray Schuler". When Ray passed the shop was sold and cues were made with the SLC signature.

... snipt
Click to expand...

Nice info in the post but one thing I found a bit funny.

Not a fore-arm because it does not look like an arm, but the butt is still the butt LOL

def4ijo-2046f547-f4db-4799-b428-ac874b8fbedc.png
 
hang-the-9 said:
Nice info in the post but one thing I found a bit funny.

Not a fore-arm because it does not look like an arm, but the butt is still the butt LOL

def4ijo-2046f547-f4db-4799-b428-ac874b8fbedc.png
Click to expand...
Haha

Well, to be fair, the word butt does have the definition of the heavy end of a tool or instrument such as the butt of a rifle. So it is the correct term, though not referring to the associated body part. :)
 
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