Recent Simonis 860 install by a table mechanic........Really?

Agit8er

New member
1987 Brunswick "Santa Fe" Model "KT".

Recent Simonis 860 install by a table mechanic from a local billiards shop. I really don't want to buy a copy of the Simonis install video but I'm quite sure this technique is not on there. I don't think this can be fixed. I want it replaced and stretched correctly and the pockets looking like every other table I've seen.
Am I out of line expecting a professional look?
How can this be acceptable?



strings showing.jpg Coming undone, strings showing!
look at these relief cuts.jpg Really?
more terrible cuts.jpg More terrible cuts!
fold lines.jpg Fold lines more fold lines.jpg More fold lines


augh!.jpg Enough already! Rails off.jpg Can't even run a ball down this rail


Was told the "fold lines" would eventually calm down and go away. Clearly it was not from a bolt but from a package. Normal?

Looking for thoughts, criticism, options, what to avoid when they return.

I don't want them to return and pull all those cuts down and under. I would think that would stress the cloth only in those areas and then the playing surface would not be consistent. I'm thinking new cloth and start over or better yet, refund my money and let me find a mechanic skilled in this type cloth installation.



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GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
That is the pits. I have never done a table but can do better than that. The cut pockets are a disgrace. Less than amateur. Would not want or let them back. It’s the best they can do.
 

gazman100

Brunswick Gold Crowns - Qld Australia
Silver Member
That is the reason I don't like most installers. Hope you get it sorted out.
This is how I finish pockets which is similar to how the installers do it on this forum.
Cheers.
 

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Toxictom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Complain loudly, complain at the business, complain about the business at the pool hall, complain on Yelp, complain on Facebook. Or at least threaten to complain to everyone and tarnish their reputation til they make it right.
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
1987 Brunswick "Santa Fe" Model "KT".

Recent Simonis 860 install by a table mechanic from a local billiards shop. I really don't want to buy a copy of the Simonis install video but I'm quite sure this technique is not on there. I don't think this can be fixed. I want it replaced and stretched correctly and the pockets looking like every other table I've seen.
Am I out of line expecting a professional look?
How can this be acceptable?



strings showing.jpg Coming undone, strings showing!
look at these relief cuts.jpg Really?
more terrible cuts.jpg More terrible cuts!
fold lines.jpg Fold lines more fold lines.jpg More fold lines


augh!.jpg Enough already! Rails off.jpg Can't even run a ball down this rail


Was told the "fold lines" would eventually calm down and go away. Clearly it was not from a bolt but from a package. Normal?

Looking for thoughts, criticism, options, what to avoid when they return.

I don't want them to return and pull all those cuts down and under. I would think that would stress the cloth only in those areas and then the playing surface would not be consistent. I'm thinking new cloth and start over or better yet, refund my money and let me find a mechanic skilled in this type cloth installation.



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You ask for a refund, and then find someone who has proven they know what they are doing.

What makes you think, they can fix the work they already did? Seems to me this might the best they can do.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just FYI, if you did not ask specifically for that type of pocket finish, you got what 99% of others get. Most local "installers" do not take the extra time to trim out the pocket all nice and clean. So in essence: you know now. The reality is this: the contract was to recover the pool table and because you did not specify anything in the contract about fine details, so you got the quality that they put out consistently. I am on your side and feel this is wrong, but, it is actually both parties that are. You ASSUMED they were going to do "x" and "y" , but, there is nothing defining the expectations of the work on the contract/ invoice. So, if you went to court, you would have a VERY hard time proving what your expectations were and that is because you never made them put it in the contract. Beating up on that company on here, yelp and all those other places actually could get you in trouble if you do not have a way to PROVE you are telling the truth, IE a contract or invoice stating the details of the work to be performed.

Sorry you went for a ride, buy the simonis dvds, learn from all of us here and you have no more issue: MAKE LEMONS INTO LEMONADE.

TFT

P.s. my finest pocket work, GC5.
 

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jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is the reason I don't like most installers. Hope you get it sorted out.
This is how I finish pockets which is similar to how the installers do it on this forum.
Cheers.
That's beautiful. How did you do that, fold a piece and cement it?

In the old Brunswick Gold Crown manuals it shows these as being glued to the slate edge before covering.

Thanks,

jv
 

Tony_in_MD

You want some of this?
Silver Member
That's beautiful. How did you do that, fold a piece and cement it?

In the old Brunswick Gold Crown manuals it shows these as being glued to the slate edge before covering.

Thanks,

jv
Your confusing two different things. The material shown in the gold crown manual is glued to the slate edge to protect the cloth over it from getting cut.

The french cuffs as been called by some, is a classy way of finishing the look of the pocket. Some installers use a think piece of plastic (ribbon) to create the fold. I have seen it stapled in. I don't remember how my last installer did his a couple of years ago.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your confusing two different things. The material shown in the gold crown manual is glued to the slate edge to protect the cloth over it from getting cut.

The french cuffs as been called by some, is a classy way of finishing the look of the pocket. Some installers use a think piece of plastic (ribbon) to create the fold. I have seen it stapled in. I don't remember how my last installer did his a couple of years ago.
Ah, I see. Would like to learn how to do that.
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
1987 Brunswick "Santa Fe" Model "KT".

Recent Simonis 860 install by a table mechanic from a local billiards shop. I really don't want to buy a copy of the Simonis install video but I'm quite sure this technique is not on there. I don't think this can be fixed. I want it replaced and stretched correctly and the pockets looking like every other table I've seen.
Am I out of line expecting a professional look?
How can this be acceptable?



strings showing.jpg Coming undone, strings showing!
look at these relief cuts.jpg Really?
more terrible cuts.jpg More terrible cuts!
fold lines.jpg Fold lines more fold lines.jpg More fold lines


augh!.jpg Enough already! Rails off.jpg Can't even run a ball down this rail


Was told the "fold lines" would eventually calm down and go away. Clearly it was not from a bolt but from a package. Normal?

Looking for thoughts, criticism, options, what to avoid when they return.

I don't want them to return and pull all those cuts down and under. I would think that would stress the cloth only in those areas and then the playing surface would not be consistent. I'm thinking new cloth and start over or better yet, refund my money and let me find a mechanic skilled in this type cloth installation.



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The close-up views in the pockets make it look like the cloth is installed upside-down. But, it's always hard to tell from photos, as the camera tends to focus on the weave.

In regards to the cuts in the pockets, this is pretty standard. It's actually what is shown in most cloth installation instructions. As most of us forum members know, there are better ways to do it. However, not every installer visits this forum. That's not to say that they are hacks, they just haven't yet learned a better way.

The crease lines should likely go away with a bit of brushing, providing the cloth is tight. I'm not sure of the cause, but I have seen it on cuts of prepackaged cloth, direct from Simonis.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
1612544089715.png


This is the only picture I have of my pockets but you can see how they were finished. It is the first table I covered but I bought the Simonis instructions and learned how to do it myself. Before I covered my table I started asking for recommendations from pool halls, players, and anyone who had a table covered. Instead of just collecting names I checked out their work and unbelievably I found not one acceptable table (at least by my standards). It appears the norm in our area is wrinkles on the rails, loose cloth and now they are even gluing the top of the slate around the pockets, I am reminded of this every time I see a slow rolling ball make a change of direction and roll away from the pocket opening. Unless you hire someone referenced from these boards you will probably get the level of work you already have, its pretty unfortunate that the majority of installers dont want to spend a little energy and improve their craft.
 

Agit8er

New member
That is the pits. I have never done a table but can do better than that. The cut pockets are a disgrace. Less than amateur. Would not want or let them back. It’s the best they can do.
Thanks for the remarks. I certainly have an uphill battle. I'm a professional installer in another field so I am pretty good at relating to and working thru issues with contractors and customers. Wish me luck.
 

Agit8er

New member
Complain loudly, complain at the business, complain about the business at the pool hall, complain on Yelp, complain on Facebook. Or at least threaten to complain to everyone and tarnish their reputation til they make it right.
I shot in leagues in Baltimore 1988 to 2008. Never once shot on a table during that time that ever had pocket cuts showing. I will keep everyone informed as to what the outcome is.
 

Agit8er

New member
The close-up views in the pockets make it look like the cloth is installed upside-down. But, it's always hard to tell from photos, as the camera tends to focus on the weave.

In regards to the cuts in the pockets, this is pretty standard. It's actually what is shown in most cloth installation instructions. As most of us forum members know, there are better ways to do it. However, not every installer visits this forum. That's not to say that they are hacks, they just haven't yet learned a better way.

The crease lines should likely go away with a bit of brushing, providing the cloth is tight. I'm not sure of the cause, but I have seen it on cuts of prepackaged cloth, direct from Simonis.
Thanks for the input. I did see the simonis logo visable along one edge of the table prior to them reinstalling the rails. As far as I know thats the way you can quickly verify the top. Is there any standard practice when installing and aligning the rails? Angle guides, straight edge, witness marks or measuring tools used? The crew "eyed" it up as they called out to move it left, right, back, forward then they would tighten the bolt.
I knew something was up as every rail shot would hit the point.
 

Agit8er

New member
View attachment 584241

This is the only picture I have of my pockets but you can see how they were finished. It is the first table I covered but I bought the Simonis instructions and learned how to do it myself. Before I covered my table I started asking for recommendations from pool halls, players, and anyone who had a table covered. Instead of just collecting names I checked out their work and unbelievably I found not one acceptable table (at least by my standards). It appears the norm in our area is wrinkles on the rails, loose cloth and now they are even gluing the top of the slate around the pockets, I am reminded of this every time I see a slow rolling ball make a change of direction and roll away from the pocket opening. Unless you hire someone referenced from these boards you will probably get the level of work you already have, its pretty unfortunate that the majority of installers dont want to spend a little energy and improve their craft.
Thanks for the perspective. I am horrified, frustrated and often disappointed in my trade. Unsafe and shoddy work passed off as good quality work. I should have had more confidence in myself and tackled the project with some help from resources like this forum.
 
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