Redefining the Definition of Backhand English

[Cornerman]

I'm not sure how it happened, but it happened. And because of internet viral wild fire, somewhere along the line the definition of Backhand English has been changed to something that it wasn't.

Many of you know me as someone who embraced the methods of Hal Houle and tailored them to my own game a long time ago. I knew then and know now what backhand english meant, as he taught backhand english.

Backhand english: the method of moving the grip hand to pivot the cue stick such that the tip is pointing to a different direction.

So, for example, in the following sentences, the usage would be correct. Please note what words and terms are NOT used because they aren't part of the definition of Backhand English (BHE):

"When using the Shishkebob method, aim the tip through left half of the cueball {edit: and point to the Center of the Object Ball} and using backhand english, pivot the tip to the center of the cueball. This is your name aim line."
​

"When cutting a ball in heavy conditions, you can use backhand english to relieve the cut."​

Hal Houle never talked about a cue stick's specific natural pivot point. Since he was the one who popularized the term, it's only fair that we use the definition that he used, which says nothing about natural pivot points of cues. The pivot method that uses the natural pivot point is part of the Aim & Pivot Test Method, which is why I still today separate Aim & Pivot from Backhand English.

Tell me whatever you want about how if you don't pivot on the natural pivot point, then you won't make the ball. You're not incorrect. But Hal didn't talk about natural pivot points and even said many times it didn't matter where you pivoted. So, if that's the case, I don't think it's right to use his term that he popularized but put a definition that he didn't accept. Whether you agree or not has no bearing on this. He had a definition for BHE, and it's all fouled up today, due to the internet.

There.

Freddie <~~~ hope that makes sense

 

[Jodacus]

So Hal said to line up with parallel english and
then pivot to the center of the cue ball with the
back hand? I'm not trying to argue, just understand.

Joe

 

[Cornerman]

So Hal said to line up with parallel english and
then pivot to the center of the cue ball with the
back hand? I'm not trying to argue, just understand.

Joe

Definitely not using parallel anything.

Specifically for the Shishkebob example? I missed a specific part of the method, but what is important is that backhand english was just the movement of the cuestick using your back hand (grip hand) to move the tip.

In the Shishkebob method, you would point the tip through one side of the Cue Ball and point to a specific part of the Object Ball (for example, the Center or the Edge or the Object Ball). Then pivot to center of the Cue Ball. You can see why this is called Shishkebob: you're skewering the cueball.

Freddie

 

[Jaden]

What is commonly now referred to as BHE...

Definitely not using parallel anything.

Specifically for the Shishkebob example? I missed a specific part of the method, but what is important is that backhand english was just the movement of the cuestick using your back hand (grip hand) to move the tip.

In the Shishkebob method, you would point the tip through one side of the CUe ball and point to a specific part of the Object Ball (for example, the Center or the Edge or the Object Ball). Then pivot to center.

Freddie

I never knew it termed as anything until discussing it here on the forums with Colin Colenso, so blame Colin....:thumbup:

Jaden

 

[Cornerman]

I never knew it termed as anything until discussing it here on the forums with Colin Colenso, so blame Colin....:thumbup:

Jaden

Yeah, "blame Colin" is right!!!

 

[jsp]

But Hal didn't talk about natural pivot points and even said many times it didn't matter where you pivoted.

But it does matter where you pivot. An infinite number of pivot points yields an infinite number of different aim lines. So given that, how one can use the term "backhand english" without specifying a unique pivot point?

 

[nobcitypool]

Parts of your description sound like Center to Edge aiming.

 

[sfleinen]

Freddie:

No offense, but a couple observations:

1. Do we have a "deity complex" thing going on here with Hal Houle? Anything Hal says is gospel, and lightning strike dead those who dare deviate from his teachings, including adding (or changing) the definitions of terms he supposedly coined?

2. In reading the words "Back hand english," to me, means using the back hand to deviate from center ball (i.e. add "english" or spin), not "return to center ball." I'm thinking that Hal may've used the phrase "back hand english" in a *very* colloquial sense to describe the action of moving the butt of the cue with the back hand (while keeping the bridge hand still). I think it was more of a loose toss of words to help the reader / student "get" the idea. I'm not sure it was intended to be a phrase written on stone tablets handed down from the mountain.

If there's one thing you can count on in language, it's change. Just look how the British sneer at us for "butchering" "their" language.

-Sean

 

[Jaden]

Before Colin...

Yeah, "blame Colin" is right!!!

before discussing it with Colin, I just referred to it as "What Efren taught me"...

Jaden

 

[Cornerman]

But it does matter where you pivot. An infinite number of pivot points yields an infinite number of different aim lines. So given that, how one can use the term "backhand english" without specifying a unique pivot point?

I think you need to reread my post a few times. As I said, you can say what you want about whether Hal was right or wrong. That doesn't matter.

What matters to me is that he popularized the term backhand english and he had a definition that didn't have anything to do with a unique pivot point. Therefore, the definition of backhand english does not have unique pivot point in mind. The "unique pivot point" notion came about with "Aim & Pivot."

Forum posters today are using the unique pivot point in conjunction with the term backhand english., but the unique pivot point concept is not and was never part of the definition as spelled out by Hal Houle. Again, it's not right to use the term that he popularized, but use a definition that he didn't agree with. Whether you agree or not with his method is not the point.

 

[Cornerman]

Freddie:

No offense, but a couple observations:

1. Do we have a "deity complex" thing going on here with Hal Houle? Anything Hal says is gospel, and lightning strike dead those who dare deviate from his teachings, including adding (or changing) the definitions of terms he supposedly coined?

You really believe that trying to educate people on the currently mis-defined word is a "deity complex"?

2. In reading the words "Back hand english," to me, means using the back hand to deviate from center ball (i.e. add "english" or spin), not "return to center ball." I'm thinking that Hal may've used the phrase "back hand english" in a *very* colloquial sense to describe the action of moving the butt of the cue with the back hand (while keeping the bridge hand still). I think it was more of a loose toss of words to help the reader / student "get" the idea. I'm not sure it was intended to be a phrase written on stone tablets handed down from the mountain.

If there's one thing you can count on in language, it's change. Just look how the British sneer at us for "butchering" "their" language.

-Sean

And the British can sneer. Why wouldn't they?

You can read the words, or you can ask people who talked (AND LISTENED) to Hal for hours on hours back then.

A man helped us by introducing and popularizing a method and its term. The internet has virally screwed it all up. I'm trying to get it right. Why wouldn't I? THere's a ton of you all that don't know the history. It's written wrong here so often, someone who knows the history should say something. Backhand English as taught by the guy who popularized it on the internet did not have a unique pivot point as part of the definition, and the man scoffed at the idea. He was actually against this false definition. RIght or wrong, he didn't believe the pivot point mattered. Hell, I argued with him that it DID matter, that's how much of a diety I believed him to be. But, he didn't believe it. So, in my opinion, it is silly to use his term that he introduced to us and give it some other definition. Use a different definition, like Pivot Point Aiming, or the Aim & Pivot Method (which did have the unique pivot point as part of the Testing for Pivot Point).

He wasn't the first to use the term Backhand English, but he popularized it. Is there any denying this??? If someone wants to track down Laki (who said it on the internet before Hal) and ask him what he thought the definition was, I'm sure he or whomever he heard if from didn't have the "unique pivot point" as part of it either.

Or, we can make rabbits into cats, and call the 6-ball the 7-ball. Or, we could actually stick to the original.

 

[Cornerman]

Parts of your description sound like Center to Edge aiming.

LOL!!!! Why wouldn't it? Hal Houle and his methods are how the CTE discussions started. Another history lesson needed?

 

[Cornerman]

before discussing it with Colin, I just referred to it as "What Efren taught me"...

Jaden

Absolutely. And let's say we start talking about Carabao English. I think people can see that it would be incorrect if someone redefined Carabao English as a method where you would start by defining a specific unique cue stick pivot point...

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Absolutely. And let's say we start talking about Carabao English. I think people can see that it would be incorrect if someone redefined Carabao English as a method where you would start by defining a specific unique cue stick pivot point...

BHE was around before Hal Houle was even born. It was Hal who tried to define something other than what it is. Someone else has to the link, but there's an article from the 1840's talking about using back hand english as a way to compensate for deflection/swerve.

 

[Cornerman]

BHE was around before Hal Houle was even born.

True

It was Hal who tried to define something other than what it is.

I disgree.

 

[sfleinen]

You really believe that trying to educate people on the currently mis-defined word is a "deity complex"?

Based on my experience on RSB, and here on AZB, sure, a-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y!

Definitions of terms occasionally change, especially when something that initially was a loose toss of words (a placemarker, if you will), then acquires a more focused definition. It happens all the time, Fred. I can't tell you how many times in I.T. a phrase that was just a loose toss of words, later solidifies into a more focused and recognizable term. In fact, companies trademark certain phrases for that very purpose.

"But oh gosh, don't you dare, DARE(!) touch any words, phrases, or definitions coined by [H]is [H]oliness."

You can't see the deity complex, because you're neck-deep in it. Hard to see the forest, when you're analyzing the bark on one tree.

And the British can sneer. Why wouldn't they?

You can read the words, or you can ask people who talked (AND LISTENED) to Hal for hours on hours back then.

A man helped us by introducing and popularizing a method and its term. The internet has virally screwed it all up. I'm trying to get it right. Why wouldn't I? THere's a ton of you all that don't know the history. It's written wrong here so often, someone who knows the history should say something. Backhand English as taught by the guy who popularized it on the internet did not have a unique pivot point as part of the definition, and the man scoffed at the idea. He was actually against this false definition. RIght or wrong, he didn't believe the pivot point mattered. Hell, I argued with him that it DID matter, that's how much of a diety I believed him to be. But, he didn't believe it. So, in my opinion, it is silly to use his term that he introduced to us and give it some other definition.

He wasn't the first to use the term, but he popularized it. Is there any denying this??? If someone wants to track down Laki (who said it on the internet before Hal) and ask him what he thought the definition was, I'm sure he or whomever he heard if from didn't have the "unique pivot point" as part of it either.

There's no denying it at all. HH may've been the first to use / coin / popularize the phrase. Then again, he may've not been the first. The point is, sometimes loose tosses of words get more strengthened and focused definitions over time. Anytime I see the word "english" in a phrase like "Back hand english," I think "going away from center axis" -- which is probably what Colin Colenso did as well. And it seems to be where people are headed as well. It's going viral, because the previous definition didn't make sense. It's "english" but yet you're using it to return to center ball?

Or, we can make rabbits into cats, and call the 6-ball the 7-ball. Or, we could actually stick to the original.

Now we're being an "all or nothing" extremist. Don't we have enough of that in our society?

Don't get me wrong; I *do* see your point, and being a bit of a grammar nazi myself, I grit my teeth when I see people misusing or abusing terms or formats. I empathize with you, Freddie.

But there's a certain level of understanding and tolerance I've learned, and one of these is letting things change. I used to bristle when folks would say "race to 150" when describing a 150-point game of straight pool. Not anymore. Things do change, and there are those things that are worth the effort to get personally involved to change back. Then again, there are those trivial things where the effort to get personally involved in reversing is better spent elsewhere. Just IMHO.

-Sean

 

[Cornerman]

I used to bristle when folks would say "race to 150" when describing a 150-point game of straight pool.

Here's a big difference: "Race to 150" is a common term that people in different parts of the country have said for decades. It's not a new term nor is it an ignorant term. So Race to 150, if you say it bristles you, it's because you don't say it. But champions in certain areas had no issues saying "Race to 150." They also said "draw english."

I don't know what your point is. Mine is that a man defined it, and it and at some point someone or someones mis-defined it. The guy deserves credit for as much flack as people have given him (and there's no denying how much shit people have given him and those that teach similar methods) over the years. The ultimate insult is to call him a joke, use his terms, and give them a different definition.

I'm absolutely sure this is new to many internet people (that unique pivot points is NOT part of the definition as Hal defined it).

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm

There's an article from Jewett in 2004. I know Bob thinks that if you're going to use Backhand English, your best bet is to use the natural pivot pivot point of the cue stick. But he didn't mention pivot points one time in an entire article talking about Backhand English. That's because it's not part of the definition.

 

[sfleinen]

[...]
I don't know what your point is.[...]

My point is, "much ado about nothing." There's no denying that Hal deserves all the credit for the systems he created. But unless he trademarked certain phrases (which he didn't), he doesn't deserve any extra special treatment for loose tosses of words just because he has a loyal fan base.

I'm fairly certain you've coined certain phrases when describing a very unique condition or situation you see people doing, and then watch as other people later adopt that phrase; maybe even modify it. I know I have; a good example being "whack-a-mole" to describe how the ghostball magically appears for me in the correct spot to pocket the object ball (I can perceive it very easily), and I just shoot into it as if I'm playing the whack-a-mole game, moving from shot to shot. Doing searches here on AZB, I'm fairly certain I was the first to use this phrase in this manner. Then later (and I do mean later, as verified in searches), I see the "whack-a-mole" phrase being used to describe the process of banning trolls. You don't see me slamming my fist on the table about someone appropriating "my phrase" to describe something else. And you never will.

They're just words, and this is key -- in the vein or spirit which I think even Hal dedicated himself -- to help in the process of education. That's the overarching rider; if it helps to crystallize something, then it can only be good. In this case, it appears that people identify more with the current definition (or "take") on "Back hand english" than Hal's original loose toss of words.

-Sean

 

[ScottK]

Here's a big difference: "Race to 150" is a common term that people in different parts of the country have said for decades. It's not a new term nor is it an ignorant term. So Race to 150, if you say it bristles you, it's because you don't say it. But champions in certain areas had no issues saying "Race to 150." They also said "draw english."

I don't know what your point is. Mine is that a man defined it, and it and at some point someone or someones mis-defined it. The guy deserves credit for as much flack as people have given him (and there's no denying how much shit people have given him and those that teach similar methods) over the years. The ultimate insult is to call him a joke, use his terms, and give them a different definition.

I'm absolutely sure this is new to many internet people (that unique pivot points is NOT part of the definition as Hal defined it).

http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett2.htm

There's an article from Jewett in 2004. I know Bob thinks that if you're going to use Backhand English, your best bet is to use the natural pivot pivot point of the cue stick. But he didn't mention pivot points one time in an entire article talking about Backhand English. That's because it's not part of the definition.

And "draw english" is an incorrect use of the term "english" as was Hal's in "defining" "backhand english" as a method to return to center ball. If the tip is at center ball it ceases to be english. Certainly you don't want to argue Hal coined the term "english," or do you?

I don't disagree with you on the subject of pivot points, but you can't simultaneously advocate Hal's definition... well redefinition of the term "english" and scold people for redefining a term Hal popularized with said redefinition.

Decide if you want to have your cake or eat it.

 

[AtLarge]

What's logical, to me, is that the term "back-hand english" should not necessarily imply the point from which the pivot occurs nor the purpose of the movement (other than to apply english).

Obviously, moving the tip off center to apply english can be done regardless of where the bridge hand is placed. If it is done by moving just the front hand, it's "front-hand english." If it's done by moving just the back hand, it's "back-hand english." Neither one requires any particular pivot point.

Now, when back-hand english is used to compensate for squirt, the pivot needs to be made from a certain location on the shaft (which might not be the natural pivot point, depending on the shot). And it has become common, I guess, for people to think of the term only in the context of squirt compensation. But, by the actual language, it is broader than that.