Referee/Rules Question

pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BCAPL 8 Ball

During our league play I was asked to referee a shot - by the shooter.

There was a cluster of balls against the rail and he had to kick at his ball for a legal hit.

He said “can you watch the hit on the 10 ball”? His opponent said nothing. Well that ten ball sure looked like it was frozen but nobody asked me to judge that. Shooter kicks hits the rail then the ten. Nothing “else” hits a rail.

Because nobody established whether it was frozen or not, or asked me to I ruled good hit (though I suspected it was a foul if the 10 had been established as frozen).

The non shooter is upset because I did not check if ball was frozen before the shot (without being asked).

Was I right not to check without being asked or should I have checked on my own?

I know this isn’t an instruction question but I figured I’d get the best response here.
 

surffisher2a

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I was asked to judge a shot like that I would have said up-front it looks like the ball is frozen to the rail before the shot was taken.

Once you are asked to referee, I believe that includes the entire shot, just not one component of it.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
BCAPL 8 Ball

During our league play I was asked to referee a shot - by the shooter.

There was a cluster of balls against the rail and he had to kick at his ball for a legal hit.

He said “can you watch the hit on the 10 ball”? His opponent said nothing. Well that ten ball sure looked like it was frozen but nobody asked me to judge that. Shooter kicks hits the rail then the ten. Nothing “else” hits a rail.

Because nobody established whether it was frozen or not, or asked me to I ruled good hit (though I suspected it was a foul if the 10 had been established as frozen).

The non shooter is upset because I did not check if ball was frozen before the shot (without being asked).

Was I right not to check without being asked or should I have checked on my own?

I know this isn’t an instruction question but I figured I’d get the best response here.

Being asked to referee a shot implies you understand the rules for the upcoming shot. You were asked to watch "the hit on the 10-ball". The hit resulted in a foul.
 

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I was asked to judge a shot like that I would have said up-front it looks like the ball is frozen to the rail before the shot was taken.

Once you are asked to referee, I believe that includes the entire shot, just not one component of it.

This is so correct.
Great answer.

randyg
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Was I right not to check without being asked or should I have checked on my own?...
The BCAPL/CSI rules have an extensive discussion of this. I think you should read through the whole ruleset of the game you are playing at least once. I understand that most players deal with the rules just by following what other players seem to be doing, but since there are written rules, it helps everyone if at least a few people read them.

Here is the applicable section of the BCAPL/CSI rules about what a referee who is called over to watch a shot is required/authorized/expected to do. I think this section applies to your situation:

2. After having been properly called to a table, the referee takes over the responsibilities and duties of the non-shooting player, including acknowledging called shots or safeties. The non-shooting player must leave the table while their opponent is shooting, and does not necessarily have the right to occupy any particular position away from the table other than being in the chair.
3. When a referee is presiding over a match, the referee will make all calls concerning the match, and no request by the players is necessary. However, players may still request specific information from the referee as necessary.

You should have called the ball frozen. In my opinion you should also have asked whether the shooter was on two fouls, since you are required to announce that prior to his shot if he is on two.

Here are the rules:

https://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf
 
Last edited:

goettlicher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The BCAPL/CSI rules have an extensive discussion of this. I think you should read through the whole ruleset of the game you are playing at least once. I understand that most players deal with the rules just by following what other players seem to be doing, but since there are written rules, it helps everyone if at least a few people read them.

Here is the applicable section of the BCAPL/CSI rules about what a referee who is called over to watch a shot is required/authorized/expected to do. I think this section applies to your situation:

2. After having been properly called to a table, the referee takes over the responsibilities and duties of the non-shooting player, including acknowledging called shots or safeties. The non-shooting player must leave the table while their opponent is shooting, and does not necessarily have the right to occupy any particular position away from the table other than being in the chair.
3. When a referee is presiding over a match, the referee will make all calls concerning the match, and no request by the players is necessary. However, players may still request specific information from the referee as necessary.

You should have called the ball frozen. In my opinion you should also have asked whether the shooter was on two fouls, since you are required to announce that prior to his shot if he is on two.

Here are the rules:

https://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf



Thanks Bob
randyg
 

pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thank you all very much. Very informative. I guess I have some apologizing to do.
 

pocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The BCAPL/CSI rules have an extensive discussion of this. I think you should read through the whole ruleset of the game you are playing at least once. I understand that most players deal with the rules just by following what other players seem to be doing, but since there are written rules, it helps everyone if at least a few people read them.

Here is the applicable section of the BCAPL/CSI rules about what a referee who is called over to watch a shot is required/authorized/expected to do. I think this section applies to your situation:

2. After having been properly called to a table, the referee takes over the responsibilities and duties of the non-shooting player, including acknowledging called shots or safeties. The non-shooting player must leave the table while their opponent is shooting, and does not necessarily have the right to occupy any particular position away from the table other than being in the chair.
3. When a referee is presiding over a match, the referee will make all calls concerning the match, and no request by the players is necessary. However, players may still request specific information from the referee as necessary.

You should have called the ball frozen. In my opinion you should also have asked whether the shooter was on two fouls, since you are required to announce that prior to his shot if he is on two.

Here are the rules:

https://www.playcsipool.com/uploads/7/3/5/9/7359673/official_rules_of_csi__170714_.pdf

Thanks Bob!

(we were playing 8ball so no three foul but I get the point.)
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BCAPL 8 Ball

During our league play I was asked to referee a shot - by the shooter.

There was a cluster of balls against the rail and he had to kick at his ball for a legal hit.

He said “can you watch the hit on the 10 ball”? His opponent said nothing. Well that ten ball sure looked like it was frozen but nobody asked me to judge that. Shooter kicks hits the rail then the ten. Nothing “else” hits a rail.

Because nobody established whether it was frozen or not, or asked me to I ruled good hit (though I suspected it was a foul if the 10 had been established as frozen).

The non shooter is upset because I did not check if ball was frozen before the shot (without being asked).

Was I right not to check without being asked or should I have checked on my own?

I know this isn’t an instruction question but I figured I’d get the best response here.

You know what? I'm going to take a different view on this. If I were the shooter and called someone over to watch a hit, the first thing I would say was whether or not I thought the object ball was frozen and make sure the person took a look at it and agreed or disagreed with my assessment.

I don't think it's right to call someone in suddenly to watch a hit and expect them to get totally up to speed on all the nuances of the layout in a matter of seconds. If there's an issue with a possible frozen ball, then the player, or even the opponent, should alert the person they're asking to watch the hit.

You don't just relinquish all responsibility just because you're calling someone in to watch a hit. You have to bring them up to speed. I sometimes even tell the person how I plan to hit the shot to help them judge it.

You shouldn't feel so bad about what happened. It's not entirely your fault. The players dropped the ball in not discussing it with you ahead of time.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
You know what? I'm going to take a different view on this. If I were the shooter and called someone over to watch a hit, the first thing I would say was whether or not I thought the object ball was frozen and make sure the person took a look at it and agreed or disagreed with my assessment.

I don't think it's right to call someone in suddenly to watch a hit and expect them to get totally up to speed on all the nuances of the layout in a matter of seconds. If there's an issue with a possible frozen ball, then the player, or even the opponent, should alert the person they're asking to watch the hit.

You don't just relinquish all responsibility just because you're calling someone in to watch a hit. You have to bring them up to speed. I sometimes even tell the person how I plan to hit the shot to help them judge it.

You shouldn't feel so bad about what happened. It's not entirely your fault. The players dropped the ball in not discussing it with you ahead of time.

I agree that the players should say, "we'd like you to watch this hit because . . . "
 
Top