Relaxed vs raised shoulder?

L

Lowell

Member
My friend who is way better than me told me I should stop raising my shoulder in my shooting position, and it seemed like good advice.

I have a tendency to chicken wing, which I'm trying to get rid of. It seems that a relaxed shoulder makes me have a straighter elbow, but I have two doubts related to doing this.

One is that it makes it harder for me to get my chin on or very close to the cue (a good habit that I was previously able to do with ease), and two is that it seems most very good players have their elbow up high. Which seems like it would be hard to do without a raised shoulder.
 
Not sure what you mean by "raised". I assume you mean "extended."

If the shoulder is positioned so that the upper arm and forearm are in the same plane as the cue, then the shoulder for virtually all players is in varying degrees of extension (I have only seen one who actually plays with the shoulder in the neutral position). Players who have their elbow pointed skyward, chin on cue, and pendulum stroke, have their shoulder fully extended. Players with an upright stance typically extend their shoulder less, have their elbow lower, and therefore have limited range of a pendulum stroke.
 
Not really sure what you mean by 'raised shoulder'. You mean higher off the cue? Either way, the nice thing about a high elbow is that it automatically anchors the elbow. When not high, it can float a bit. A good way to anchor the elbow even if it isn't in the high position is to feel like you have your elbow as far back away from your head as possible. So you get the benefits that come with a high elbow, but in a position that is more relaxed and more attainable for many people who can feel strained after playing a while with a high elbow.
 
Not Dead Ted said:
Not sure what you mean by "raised". I assume you mean "extended."

If the shoulder is positioned so that the upper arm and forearm are in the same plane as the cue, then the shoulder for virtually all players is in varying degrees of extension (I have only seen one who actually plays with the shoulder in the neutral position). Players who have their elbow pointed skyward, chin on cue, and pendulum stroke, have their shoulder fully extended. Players with an upright stance typically extend their shoulder less, have their elbow lower, and therefore have limited range of a pendulum stroke.
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By raised, I mean that it is extended towards the ceiling
 
Lowell said:
By raised, I mean that it is extended towards the ceiling
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You might check out this thread, particularly Fran Crimi's post, and see if it answers your question.
L

Thread 'Any instruction resources available for playing with an upright stance?'

Hi, I'm an enthusiastic pool player who loves to practice and work on technique. My big problem is I have fused cervical discs and cervical arthritis. Having to lift my head up with a low stance, even if not very low, gives me a lot of neck pain, and I can't practice nearly as long as I would like. I know the old timers obviously played well with an upright stance. I appreciate all the great AZ, YouTube and written instruction available, but I haven't been able to find any good instruction specific to playing with an upright stance. I know a lot of the instruction for low-head stances can...
 
lfigueroa said:
Of all the things involved with executing a good stroke I think my shoulder would be one of the last things I'd worry about, lol.

Lou Figueroa
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How about the elbow?

Weird to refer to it as shoulder extension, which it technically is, but OP is talking about playing with a high elbow where the shoulder is extended and humerus angles upward vs a more neutral position for the shoulder with a more horizontal humerus and a lower elbow.

After reading my own explanation, trying to relay OP's intent, I've decided Bob was def right... we need pictures :p
 
WobblyStroke said:
How about the elbow?

Weird to refer to it as shoulder extension, which it technically is, but OP is talking about playing with a high elbow where the shoulder is extended and humerus angles upward vs a more neutral position for the shoulder with a more horizontal humerus and a lower elbow.

After reading my own explanation, trying to relay OP's intent, I've decided Bob was def right... we need pictures :p
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My opinion is that there are only so many things you can work on to improve your stroke -- and shoulders and elbows are pretty much going to do what they gonna do.

I think the four key elements to focus on are: footwork, head position, grip, and bridges. If you work on those everything else will fall into place... or not, lol.

Lou Figueroa
 
I would video myself then compare my form with the player I would like to emulate. For me it would be Ronnie O'Sullivan or perhaps Stephen Hendry. The pre shot routine is like a dance and should flow. Again check out Ronnie and notice the whole process and the things that he does every shot.
Physical limitations can effect the form but using gravity to find the most efficient and repeatable stroke can help.
 
Lowell said:
My friend who is way better than me told me I should stop raising my shoulder in my shooting position, and it seemed like good advice.

I have a tendency to chicken wing, which I'm trying to get rid of. It seems that a relaxed shoulder makes me have a straighter elbow, but I have two doubts related to doing this.

One is that it makes it harder for me to get my chin on or very close to the cue (a good habit that I was previously able to do with ease), and two is that it seems most very good players have their elbow up high. Which seems like it would be hard to do without a raised shoulder.
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From your description, it seems the raised shoulder is bringing the cue up to your chin. This would elevate the butt of your cue unnecessarily. Hence the better players advice. Don’t purposefully raise, lower, contort anything. Stance needs to be natural, neutral, comfortable, repeatable. There are a bunch of videos on this. A good one is Hunter Lombardo giving a lesson to a guy named Rollie. Keep your cue close to level. How close your chin gets just depends on physical traits.
 
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How is your draw shot? Can you deliver the cue accurately? Have you done the Bob Jewett/Dr. Dave test? The one with the striped ball as the cue ball? It can reveal a lot about your stroke. If your friend, the better player, is willing, it might be beneficial to do it with him. Set up the shot and compare results. I did this myself and was shocked how badly I was missing my intended contact point. Once you know that, it’s easy to fix.
 
gregcantrall said:
I would video myself then compare my form with the player I would like to emulate. For me it would be Ronnie O'Sullivan or perhaps Stephen Hendry. The pre shot routine is like a dance and should flow. Again check out Ronnie and notice the whole process and the things that he does every shot.
Physical limitations can effect the form but using gravity to find the most efficient and repeatable stroke can help.
Click to expand...

hendry had great fundamentals but ronnie (or judd trump) is hardly someone to emulate. same with many cue geniuses, svb, bustie, etc
 
Do the opposite. Push the other shoulder towards the cue. That would naturaly rotate you and fix the issue with the shoulder.
That leads to rotating the body, or maybe moving your feet.

Was doing same thing as you. You have alignment issue and youre fixing it with shoulder positioning.
 
Never ever thought about my shoulder position while shooting. I have an idea.
Let's really complicate the game.
Pretty sure the stroke is delivered from a lower position than the shoulder like elbow or wrist. I could be wrong.
 
Lowell said:
My friend who is way better than me told me I should stop raising my shoulder in my shooting position, and it seemed like good advice.

I have a tendency to chicken wing, which I'm trying to get rid of. It seems that a relaxed shoulder makes me have a straighter elbow, but I have two doubts related to doing this.

One is that it makes it harder for me to get my chin on or very close to the cue (a good habit that I was previously able to do with ease), and two is that it seems most very good players have their elbow up high. Which seems like it would be hard to do without a raised shoulder.
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It's possible to morph into 'better' mechanics but the going is at the speed of the obstruction(s). IOW in order of response times: muscle memory, ligaments, cartilage and bone.
If you're doing a complete overhaul, get into stance and and just let everything hang. Do the stroking motion as slowly as possible using only what feels like the required muscles. Go very slowly. You're trying to develop a picture of what it takes.
 
Lowell said:
My friend who is way better than me told me I should stop raising my shoulder in my shooting position, and it seemed like good advice.

I have a tendency to chicken wing, which I'm trying to get rid of. It seems that a relaxed shoulder makes me have a straighter elbow, but I have two doubts related to doing this.

One is that it makes it harder for me to get my chin on or very close to the cue (a good habit that I was previously able to do with ease), and two is that it seems most very good players have their elbow up high. Which seems like it would be hard to do without a raised shoulder.
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You might try holding the cue a bit looser on your forward stroke. Don't tighten your grip during the shot as the cue comes forward. That will surely pull you off line.
Keep that pinkie free. Sometimes it's that simple.
 
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