Removing all Traces of EVIL Wax

How much damage do you think the edges of the slate would see?? If the slates are pulled tight together, the edges won't be contacted. I don't care what game you or playing or how hard the balls contact the surface.

i agree if your slate is nicely machined like the table i'm currently working on you can go with wax. (i posted pics of the that seam and compared it to the seam on my Brunstone ) . on 'good' slate, it might be better to use wax because it's hard to get bondo down far into the slate and i will consider the wax option if the bondo fails me.... correct me if i'm wrong but the machining of slate has gotten better over the years, right?

when the slate isn't machined like it should be and there is more of a gap. i would never use wax in such a case and on that crappy Brunstone i had, the gap was too wide for wax. bondo was definitely the way to go...

so maybe the 'formula' should be "good" slate, use wax, iffy slate use bondo.

but i'm rereading your post and i have to address these points:

You need to melt the wax into the pores of the slate. When scraped, it will be about a 4" wide stripe of wax, with a smooth appearance, like glass.

melting the wax is melting the wax. it's not the wax on the outside of the seam that comes out, it's the seam wax that pulls up when vacuuming. also, if you put 4" wide stripe of wax on the seam that will cause an elevation unless you scrape it off which will defeat the purpose, right?

You hit the nail on the head: "from a novice perspective". Your arguments don't hold weight.
sure my arguments hold weight. i may be a novice but i can eventually get a table playing better than most 'slap-dash' mechanics. i know because i hired one. that's when i decided to learn how to set up a pool table by myself. you just have to know some basics the most important being that SLATE BENDS. i had no idea before i began learning that slate bends. the other thing i learned is to put shims in the center to support the middle of the slate which keeps the balls from rolling off toward the center of the table. now that i have a good level and found a table with good slate, this isn't that hard. anyone with general mechanical know-how can do it but just not as fast as a pro.

i have my table super level now and i'm going over it with the ball roll which is the fun part. it's really nice. now for the cloth and rails...

Use what you want. But don't tell the rest of us about the inferiority of a product, just because you don't know how to use it.
again: when you melt the wax in the seam and scrape off the excess, that's about all the know-how involved. you mainly just have to not overheat it and let it drip down onto the ground. melted wax is melted wax.
 
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As far as wax vs bondo or both at once + super glue or any other permutation, i don't have a horse in the race and am here strictly to learn.
agreed.... i have set-up five pool tables in my life therefore i'm still learning. the one thing i've recently learned is that i don't like waxing the seams. the consensus is that the slate should be super-glued then bondoed together to make the setup last longer. you can't do that using wax. wax limits you and despite doing wax many times i ALWAYS got wax fragments coming up from the seam forcing me to iron them back down which leaves a waxy spot on the cloth. i guess i could make a wax 'mound' like stated above which would help keep the wax in the seam from coming out but that would leave a bulge at the seams. there's no way around it.... i would not want someone to set-up my new table using wax.
 
I appreciate curiosity. That is how we all learn.. However, your approach is a bit brash for my taste. Regardless, I will continue to address your incessant questioning of common practice, even with your egotistical insistence that you already know better than the professionals.

Naturally, the machining of slate has gotten nicer over the years. But, it all depends on the individual table. Just because you had a bad experience with a Gold Crown III, does not mean that all Gold Crowns are bad. I'll have to look, but I'm pretty sure that I told you how to fix yours, and you didn't want to go through the trouble.

If you want to be good at setting up tables, you sometimes need to put in some extra work. Who cares why.. Maybe because of a previous installer.. Maybe because of a poor manufacturing process.. Maybe a poor design.. In the end, it's about making the table as nice as it can be. Cut corners, and get poor results.

I maintain my position on the beeswax. If installed properly, it'll never chip out, as you are suggesting. Not only that, if your gap is too wide, you need to address the cause. If it is caused by the edge of the slate, such as your table, you need to belt sand it. No excuses. Just fix it, and be done with it.

Again, it is more about the installer, than about the product used.
 
I appreciate curiosity. That is how we all learn.. However, your approach is a bit brash for my taste. Regardless, I will continue to address your incessant questioning of common practice, even with your egotistical insistence that you already know better than the professionals.

Naturally, the machining of slate has gotten nicer over the years. But, it all depends on the individual table. Just because you had a bad experience with a Gold Crown III, does not mean that all Gold Crowns are bad. I'll have to look, but I'm pretty sure that I told you how to fix yours, and you didn't want to go through the trouble.

If you want to be good at setting up tables, you sometimes need to put in some extra work. Who cares why.. Maybe because of a previous installer.. Maybe because of a poor manufacturing process.. Maybe a poor design.. In the end, it's about making the table as nice as it can be. Cut corners, and get poor results.

I maintain my position on the beeswax. If installed properly, it'll never chip out, as you are suggesting. Not only that, if your gap is too wide, you need to address the cause. If it is caused by the edge of the slate, such as your table, you need to belt sand it. No excuses. Just fix it, and be done with it.

Again, it is more about the installer, than about the product used.

Nice, Iike that response:thumbup:
 
Just because you had a bad experience with a Gold Crown III, does not mean that all Gold Crowns are bad. I'll have to look, but I'm pretty sure that I told you how to fix yours, and you didn't want to go through the trouble.

i didn't condemn all Gold Crown pool tables. where did you get that from my posts? i'm never going to buy another Brunstone table though i can tell you that right now...

if the slate seam was the only issue with that Brunstone, i'd have dealt with it. but this begs the question, why would brunswick quality control allow this to pass inspection? Bondo in that seam would have worked. wax would never have worked... the foot-slate was crowned but even so i was going to deal with it. i tried to level that table for three days and realized that i was NEVER going to be happy with it. getting rid of it was a good decision because it was getting my blood-pressure up. i'm sure that if i kept after it i could get it playing 'ok' but that was as good as this this particular table was going to get, 'ok'. "the most valuable thing you can spend is time" and i wasn't spending any more on that Brunstone nightmare.

If you want to be good at setting up tables, you sometimes need to put in some extra work.

you don't know me very well....i'm putting a lot of work into my $75.00 AH table and i'm very happy with the results. as stated, this Brunstone GCIII had more than one problem and THE BEST that anyone could get it would be a below average playing table. replace that Brunstone with good slate and the problem would be solved but i didn't have any spare slate hanging around and i wasn't going to put a thousand dollars+ into this table when i can buy another, cheaper. there are plenty of good pool tables out there that are worth spending time/money on. that particular table was not.

and just so you guys know, the whole reason i'm setting up my pool tables by myself and not calling a pro is because i went that route before. his butt-crack was hanging out of his pants and he slap-dashed my GCI together and it wasn't right at all. i didn't bother calling him back but instead started to learn. this isn't rocket science but there is a lot to know and here's something that i now know: "if you want something done right, do it yourself." pros have time constraints, i don't. ;)
I appreciate curiosity. That is how we all learn.. However, your approach is a bit brash for my taste. Regardless, I will continue to address your incessant questioning of common practice, even with your egotistical insistence that you already know better than the professionals.

i was kidding but serious about the continued use of wax on the seams. as you know, more and more mechanics are going to super-glue and bondo. wax was ok long ago but now not. extendign the wax up to 4" on the slate might keep it from being sucked out of the seam but it makes a mound. that alone should be enough reason to not use it.

having said this: i truly appreciate that you guys are helping me when i run into a problem. THANKS!
 
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i'm never going to buy another Brunstone table though i can tell you that right now...

Your Gold Crown III was slate, not Brunstone. The pictures that you posted were very clear.

if the slate seam was the only issue with that Brunstone, i'd have dealt with it. but this begs the question, why would brunswick quality control allow this to pass inspection? Bondo in that seam would have worked. wax would never have worked...

If you belt sanded the edge, it wouldn't have mattered what you used for a seam filler. You can argue all you want, that the slate should never have been in that condition. However, that doesn't change the fact that the slate IS in that condition, and it needs to be corrected.

the foot-slate was crowned but even so i was going to deal with it.

Since it was just the foot-slate that was crowned, there is a pretty reasonable fix for that.

i tried to level that table for three days and realized that i was NEVER going to be happy with it.

Setting and managing reasonable expectations are the key to happiness.

getting rid of it was a good decision because it was getting my blood-pressure up. i'm sure that if i kept after it i could get it playing 'ok' but that was as good as this this particular table was going to get, 'ok'.

Or perhaps, 'ok' was as good as YOU would be able to get it. Not to say that a skilled professional couldn't make it even better.

"the most valuable thing you can spend is time" and i wasn't spending any more on that Brunstone nightmare.

Hence the reason that I've considered blocking you.

you don't know me very well....i'm putting a lot of work into my $75.00 AH table and i'm very happy with the results.

Didn't want to spend your time on a quality table, but you are completely satisfied with spending time on a far inferior table....

as stated, this Brunstone GCIII had more than one problem and THE BEST that anyone could get it would be a below average playing table.

WRONG!

replace that Brunstone with good slate and the problem would be solved but i didn't have any spare slate hanging around and i wasn't going to put a thousand dollars+ into this table when i can buy another, cheaper. there are plenty of good pool tables out there that are worth spending time/money on. that particular table was not.

and just so you guys know, the whole reason i'm setting up my pool tables by myself and not calling a pro is because i went that route before. his butt-crack was hanging out of his pants and he slap-dashed my GCI together and it wasn't right at all. i didn't bother calling him back but instead started to learn. this isn't rocket science but there is a lot to know and here's something that i now know: "if you want something done right, do it yourself." pros have time constraints, i don't. ;)

So you had a bad experience with a 'Professional', and now all Professionals are bums. Makes sense...

i was kidding but serious about the continued use of wax on the seams. as you know, more and more mechanics are going to super-glue and bondo. wax was ok long ago but now not.

Says who?? Just because Diamond uses Bondo, as per Glen's recommendation, does not mean that everyone does. Nor does it mean that everyone should. And just why is wax no longer acceptable? Your reasoning for it is flawed, at best. I've already blown holes in your thought that wax is easily chipped from the surface. It's not, if it is installed correctly. And, it is plenty hard enough for use on a pool table.

extendign the wax up to 4" on the slate might keep it from being sucked out of the seam but it makes a mound. that alone should be enough reason to not use it.

Wrong again.. Why would it make a mound? You have to scrape it flush with the surface of the slate. Sure, you may see a ribbon of wax, as it is wicked into the pores of the slate. However, you will not feel a step, nor could you measure any change in thickness.

having said this: i truly appreciate that you guys are helping me when i run into a problem. THANKS!

I have tried to help, based on my years of experience in this business. I don't appreciate that you want to argue with me about every point that I make, or the fact that you insist that my methods are antiquated. Though, as a Professional, I will remain courteous, and continue to offer support.

Please see my responses in Red
 
Why would it make a mound? You have to scrape it flush with the surface of the slate.
you stated that you bring the wax out 4" to keep it from being sucked out of the seam but then you say that you scrape all of that off. then how is applying a super-thin coating of wax 2" on each side of the seam going to keep the wax in the seam from coming out? also, the wax can only melt so far into the slate. i don't understand...

Your Gold Crown III was slate, not Brunstone. The pictures that you posted were very clear.
well, that's what i thought until Cobra said that it was "Brunstone" .

If you belt sanded the edge, it wouldn't have mattered
sure, if this were the last GC on the planet i might have done that. you missed my point. i wasn't going to waste any more time on this table when there are millions of them out there.

now all Professionals are bums.
yeah, i remember saying that.... no, i decided not not pay a lot of money taking a chance on a pro and i will learn to do it myself. just like working on my car. ;)

And just why is wax no longer acceptable?
#1. it doesn't protect the edges of the slate.
#2.it doesn't stick the slates together.
#3. it's a pita to remove.
#4.bondo is a malleable plastic filler that is stronger in every way than wax and easier to apply. no torch necessary...
contrary to your position, wax WILL suck out of the seams if you vacuum your table especially if your table is not kept in a climate controlled environment. it gets harder and softer with temperature fluctuations. i know because i lived in texas. when my table got cold is when the wax was more likely to come out of the seams. bondo is made to withstand dramatic temperature swings without cracking et...
#5. Wax is now an antiquated method now that bondo is available.
 
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you stated that you bring the wax out 4" to keep it from being sucked out of the seam but then you say that you scrape all of that off. then how is applying a super-thin coating of wax 2" on each side of the seam going to keep the wax in the seam from coming out? also, the wax can only melt so far into the slate. i don't understand...

You have to melt the wax in to the pores of the slate, including the edges of the seams. Extending the wax 2" beyond each side of the seam has very little to do with ensuring that it does not pull out of the seam. It is to ensure that your joint is smooth and flush along the entire length. Sometimes, the surface along the edge of a slate is damaged, or not exactly flat. Could be for a number of reasons.. Maybe a past installer hacked at it with a razor blade or sand paper.. Or maybe they used Bondo, and sanded divots in the surface.. Whatever the cause, this ensures that it is corrected. I use a 6" putty knife, with a razor sharp edge, to scrape the wax. One fluid motion along the seam, pressing evenly at about a 30 degree angle to the slate. If it is still high, I will take multiple passes.

well, that's what i thought until Cobra said that it was "Brunstone" .

Cobra and I have this argument regularly. Even Professionals disagree on things. But, we're still friends. The pictures that you showed were of a bluish grey stone: obviously slate. Brunstone is more of a brownish grey.

sure, if this were the last GC on the planet i might have done that. you missed my point. i wasn't going to waste any more time on this table when there are millions of them out there.

I agree, but you replaced it with an inferior table. Even on its best day, it will never play as good as that Gold Crown.

yeah, i remember saying that.... no, i decided not not pay a lot of money taking a chance on a pro and i will learn to do it myself. just like working on my car. ;)

That's how I started in this business.



Again, comments in Red
 
You have to melt the wax in to the pores of the slate,
i'm not trying to be a jerk but how can one NOT melt it into the pores of the slate? you said -when replying to me about how to keep the wax from coming out of the seam- that you put a 4" swath. then you say that this is to level imperfections.

Cobra and I have this argument regularly. Even Professionals disagree on things. But, we're still friends. The pictures that you showed were of a bluish grey stone: obviously slate. Brunstone is more of a brownish grey.
OK, so can you please send some links to the differences between Brunstone and slate? i did a search but came up dry...

thanks!

I agree, but you replaced it with an inferior table. Even on its best day, it will never play as good as that Gold Crown.
for $75.00 i can't go wrong. i'll get it set-up and playing excellent and put it up for sale and at the same time look for a Diamond.

That's how I started in this business.
lol... yeah, i learned autobody/paint this way. now i paint all of my cars, trucks and motorcycles myself and i'm considering painting motorcycle tanks for a living.
 

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