Results from Changing out Phenolic Tip

S

stevesdl

Registered
Well.... here is the quick result answer --> :crying:


I left the carbon fiber ferrule intact and only had the phenolic tip sanded down. I then had a Le Pro tip installed. The work was only $10.00 and so I felt the test with a medium hardness density of approx. 78.2 (Per Proper's density test results) was worth a testing and an acceptable loss if the tip does not work out.

I had been recording my break results for the last 32 breaks. With the phenolic I was averaging 2 balls per break, 27 out of 32 breaks (I did scratch in the side pocket 4 of those breaks as well). Only a few breaks left all 15 balls on the table. Balls were scattered very nicely most of the time and allowed for high probability to break and run.

So far with the new tip, 12 out 20 breaks I am averaging 1 ball per break. The remainder 8 breaks are leaving a few balls right at the pockets everytime but not going in. The balls are still scattered decently but not quite as nicely as before. Interestingly, I am rarely leaving the cue ball in the middle like I was most often with the phenolic tip either.

I am really trying to stroke as hard as I can to get the same results as with the phenolic but so far "no-go". I am going to have to make some serious changes on what I felt was a nicely close to perfected break shot to get anything near my results with the phenolic tip.

Bottom line.. It is a different feel, strike and result with a non-phenolic tip.


By the way, I looked into the White diamond tip but I have a strange feeling that tip might fall into the "banned tip" club. It would be nice if the BCAPL\CSI rule regulators gave examples of what is "truly acceptable" for some of the questionable tips. :(

I am an intermdiate player so I am sure many of you will more easily overcome the downfall and make tip decision and break adjustments more easily.


Stevesdl
 
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Steve,

I think you are right about the White Diamond tip. I would prefer they change the rule wording to "non-leather tips" that are illegal. Makes it much simpler.
 
Try the SuperPro leather tip. IMO will work better than the LePro. Its a very hard leather tip. I use it as my playing tip.

Let me know if you want to try one out and i'll send you one if you cant get ahold of one.
 
stevesdl said:
Interestingly, I am rarely leaving the cue ball in the middle like I was most often with the phenolic tip either.
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Thus either you are stroking the break shot worse with the leather tip then with the phenolic or you are hitting it the same but the phenolic tip was giving you more forgivness in a bad break stroke.

A bad stroke should result in bad results, and gimmick equipment should not be all it takes to fix that, practice and learning how to properly stroke the ball should.

Either way you are going to get worse results on the break if you are losing the cueball for no other reason then not hitting the break squarely and/or putting spin on the cueball that negatively affects breaking power.
 
Thank you for the offer on the SuperPro - I looked them up and saw that they are a hardness density of about 74. That is a little softer than the Le Pro but of course all this hardness density scale might be a little flawed or inaccurate.

I fear we might be making a bad decision and letting a good thing pass by banning phenolic tips though. (Just my amateur opinion though) Back in the 70's I played #1 singles competitively with a Wilson T2000 and T3000 (First metal racquets). Today, the head on the super ultra lightweight carbon fiber racquets are some 60%-70% larger and during this evolution, the tennis ball manufaturers had to make changes to thier products for the harder hitting racquets. (Notice they did not consider the racquet improvement unfair, damaging, or illegal. - they went with game improvement) Now look at the game today. :):)


I found this on the internet and it appears Mr. Proper did this testing and posted hardness density results. (Partial list)

Medium Hard (Density = 76-80)
Le Pro - 78.2
Triumph - 76.9
Chandivert Champion - 74.2
Chandivert Crown - 77.1
Chandivert Comprime - 78.7
Tiger Dynamite - 77.2
Wild Boar - 77.8
Talisman Pro - 77.0
Porper Majestic - 77.4

Hard (Density = 81-85)
Sumo - 82.0
Triangle - 81.4
Tsunami - 82.4
Stratos - 81.1
Tiger Laminated - 81.0
Stingray - 83.5
Chandivert Rocky - 82.1
Moori - 82.7
Talisman - 81.4

Extra Hard (Density = 86+)
Talisman - 86.1
Stratos - 87.3
Tiger Jump/Break - 99
 
"Thus either you are stroking the break shot worse with the leather tip then with the phenolic or you are hitting it the same but the phenolic tip was giving you more forgivness in a bad break stroke."

Hi Celtic,
I hit my cue ball just barely lower than dead center. I also thought I might be hitting it differently when I am trying to compensate for the leather tip difference so I pulled out my Scorpion CB and also my Jim Rempe CB. Using these balls I can start perfectly clean and see the chalk mark on the ball after the break.

With all respect (I am always open to suggestions and learn from most everyone), the chalk mark is almost a perfect image match over 8 breaks (4 each) and it is exactly where I was hitting with the phenolic (barely just shy of dead center vertically and dead center horizontally.

But leaving all things open, obviously something is not working right. :):)

Back to the 150-200 breaks till I figure it out.

Thanks though Celtic! :)

Steve
 
A pro stopped by the pool hall last night and was playing $10 a game 9-ball. I watched as he used a house cue and dropped 4 balls on the break. That was a pretty insane break stroke.

I have a decent break using triangle tips. I've considering switching to Samsara leather break tips. I tried phenolic and the feel seems so dead to me. I have a really hard time controlling the cueball. The break cue that I compared it with was exactly the same kind as the one I use, just with a different tip.
 
stevesdl said:
Thank you for the offer on the SuperPro - I looked them up and saw that they are a hardness density of about 74. That is a little softer than the Le Pro but of course all this hardness density scale might be a little flawed or inaccurate.
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Hi,

the LePro is a tip with an extreme variation in its hardness. There were Threads where cuemakers claimed to sort out half or even more of a box of 50 to find the ones with enough structural integrity. You might have gotten a very soft one.

The quality of laminated tips is much more consistent, so I'd recommend to try a really hard laminated tip.

Best regards,

Detlev
 
I now know why I adjusted my stroke to hit just below the verticle equator. I just tried hitting dead center vertically and lost the CB off the table 3 out of 6 times. My stroke was watched by two other players and I am stroking level as well. This is all on an 8 foot table. I am using Aramith balls and aramith 6 dot CB so I see where I am literally hitting smack dab on the red dot.

My past break approach for 8-ball racks has been approximately 3" behind the head string and 4-5 inches off center. If the center of the 1 ball in the rack is considered 6 o'clock, I am striking it with the CB at approximately 5:30. :):) I hope that makes pool talk sense.

I think it might be apparent that I am going to have to perfect a different approach angle and stay at just below the equator. :D

Thanks
Stevesdl
 
stevesdl said:
I now know why I adjusted my stroke to hit just below the verticle equator. I just tried hitting dead center vertically and lost the CB off the table 3 out of 6 times. My stroke was watched by two other players and I am stroking level as well. This is all on an 8 foot table. I am using Aramith balls and aramith 6 dot CB so I see where I am literally hitting smack dab on the red dot.

My past break approach for 8-ball racks has been approximately 3" behind the head string and 4-5 inches off center. If the center of the 1 ball in the rack is considered 6 o'clock, I am striking it with the CB at approximately 5:30. :):) I hope that makes pool talk sense.

I think it might be apparent that I am going to have to perfect a different approach angle and stay at just below the equator. :D

Thanks
Stevesdl
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Try breaking from different spots on the table. Sometimes you can hit them perfect and nothing falls. It just goes that way sometimes. Good luck.

BVal
 
I had a Tiger 99 installed on an inexpensive stick. I was breaking fairly well and consistently. Then I had the opportunity to buy a J&J Jump/Break. This stick breaks even better. Can anyone let me know what the tips is on a j&j?

Thanks,

Dwight
 
stevesdl said:
I hit my cue ball just barely lower than dead center. I also thought I might be hitting it differently when I am trying to compensate for the leather tip difference so I pulled out my Scorpion CB and also my Jim Rempe CB. Using these balls I can start perfectly clean and see the chalk mark on the ball after the break.
Click to expand...

Don't worry about chalk marks. The cueball's reaction after the break is the indicator of a good or bad break, the chalk mark means squat if the cueball spins back to the end rail. In all honesty you are more likely to get more spin on the ball with a leather tip then phenolic so you will likely have to adjust where you are hitting the cueball with the new tip compared to where you hit it with the old. While slightly below center might work perfectly on a break with a phenolic tip it might cause too much backspin when done with a leather tip. In all honesty I would almost expect that you would have to hit the cueball a slight bit higher with a leather tip to get a cueball reaction similar to where you hit with a phenolic. Try it.

Break until you can figure out which contact point on the cueball makes the cueball hit the head ball square, come off the pack, and park itself in the center of the table. That point will be different based on all sorts of factors such as cloth speed, the type of shaft, the type of tip, ect... and you will have to simply hit racks until you figure out how to park the cueball while hitting hard breakshot. Only then can you finally start to figure out the comparison between the two tips. Hitting good controlled breaks with a phenolic you are used to and then hitting bad breaks with a leather tip you are not used to and don't know how to break well with yet is not going to tell you much.
 
Hi Dwight,
This might give you your answer --> http://www.jjcue.com/jjcue-jumpbkcue.htm

It might appear your J&J Jump\Break cue has the following:
Canadian maple shaft, most cues with special break cue taper, special break ferrule, and super hard phenolic Magic jump tip

Sorry if that is bad news in regards to the "banning".

Stevesdl
 
stevesdl said:
Thank you for the offer on the SuperPro - I looked them up and saw that they are a hardness density of about 74. That is a little softer than the Le Pro but of course all this hardness density scale might be a little flawed or inaccurate.
Click to expand...

Wow.......dont know how anybody would have this tip rated at a medium. But its definately not softer than a LePro. Its one of the hardest tips i've ever used. I guess you have to try it to believe it.

Anyway, good luck in your search sir.
 
the non-layered black WB water buffalo tips are the hardest leather tips i've ever seen.

If that's not enough for ya, put one in a vice and squeeze it a little first.

These tips are so hard that they almost sound like phenolic.
 
asn130 said:
the non-layered black WB water buffalo tips are the hardest leather tips i've ever seen.

If that's not enough for ya, put one in a vice and squeeze it a little first.

These tips are so hard that they almost sound like phenolic.
Click to expand...

That's what i use. it gets the job done for real!
 
asn130 said:
the non-layered black WB water buffalo tips are the hardest leather tips i've ever seen.

If that's not enough for ya, put one in a vice and squeeze it a little first.

These tips are so hard that they almost sound like phenolic.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm using as well as of about a week ago. I really enjoy it. I've always hit the ball fairly hard but could never get control with a phenolic tip. Now that I changed to a pressed WB tip I'm able to get, what feels like, the same speed and I can squat the cue ball around 75% of the time. The only thing I'm having problems with is jumping. I can get over most balls, but inside 6 inches I'm having issues. I'll get there though, in time.
 
Is this the Water Buffalo tip the last three posts are speaking of?

http://www.pooldawg.com/product/water-buffalo-single-replacement-tip-1-

The link is from Pooldawg site.


Also do any of you perform your own tip repair, removal and attach and if so what tool do you use?

Thanks everyone for input. I practiced on another 37 racks last night from different angles and english and improved a little but it is just not like the phenolic or really even close. I am willing to try the water buffalo. :)

Stevesdl
 
I just got an OB1 Break shaft w/ Samsara J/B tip. Still at the getting acquainted stage w/ the shaft, but I can say without hesitation that the Samsara J/B tip is bone shatteringly hard. I've already got several of them on hand, and I plan to replace the tips on my hopper cues as well as the White Diamond that's on one of my X Breaker shafts.
 
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