reusing shaft collars

[cuemonster]

I just picked up 2 very early Scruggs cues, without the TS logos so 1978-1980.

The shafts have significant warpage and I want to have the collars taken off the shafts and used on new shafts.

Is this something that can be done? Also can the original brass female threaded inserts be reused in the new shafts?

The butt of the cues will need refinishing as well, but should turn out pretty nicely. Just can't lose these early Scruggs collars and recreating them would be impossible.

Thanks in advance
Here photos:

 

[Trent]

reuse the colars yes it can be done, reusing the inserts..... I dont.

Its a fairly easy job.

 

[cuemonster]

Prior thread

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=209462&highlight=reusing+shaft+collar

Above is the only prior thread I found that may answer my question. The first responder advocates just taking the phenolic collar off the shaft, but the original poster proposes using a tenon.

I would think just taking the collar and isert out would make more sense.

Any opinions from cuemakers would be appreciated.

I have 2 cuemakers in mind for the work, one being Scot Sherbine at Proficient billiards. I'm not sure he builds shafts, but have seen his excellent refinishing work.

 

[cuemonster]

reuse the colars yes it can be done, reusing the inserts no.

Its a fairly easy job.

Thanks Trent, I thought it was doable. Do you know if there is anybody at TS cues that would take on this project? Probably be costly to do there.

 

[Bob A]

The joint collar and insert can be removed as one piece and installed in a new shaft making the lineup of shaft and butt as the orginal. Donald Bludworth told me how when I was at Bluds place in Texas. Have done quite a few with no problems.

 

[ddcuerepair]

you can reuse the rings and insert. I do it all the time.

 

[cuemonster]

Thanks

I would prefer to have the inserts reused as well. I think this is a 5/16 x 18 thread. That was used on early Scruggs from what little I have seen on the subject. Hard to research 30 plus year old cues, especially cues at the player level. Just not many examples. I did find a 1980 Scruggs first catalog copy on classiccues. The 1st cue in the lineup is similiar, but the joint rings on these are very elaborate.

Photos of the joint and buttsleeves:

 

[KJ Cues]

Thanks Trent, I thought it was doable. Do you know if there is anybody at TS cues that would take on this project? Probably be costly to do there.

Since Mr. Scruggs has retired, getting him to work on your cues would be VERY expensive.
Those rings are far from impossible to duplicate.
Once the veneer stack is glued-up, slotting and inlaying the billet would take a couple of hrs.
However, since the shafts are toast anyway, salvaging the orig. rings seems your best option.
Do the shafts have ivory ferrules?

KJ

 

[dave sutton]

There is nothing special about the inserts. I'd rather start with something new and oversized then trying to line up something already to size and have to get it perfect. By the time they are done they will be sanded and look new anyway. All it will do is probably cost you more money for something that might be not as perfect as a new inserts would be. Just taking more time.

Just my 2 cents.

I also think a tenon will mess with the feedback thru the cue. I would rather have it done
right. Junk the old shaft and make brand new 1 pc shafts using the old collars only.

Can it be done yes. However just bc it CAN be done doesn't mean it should or is a good idea.

 

[rhncue]

I use the tenon method any chance I get. Even my new cues use a Bocota tenon. When done as I do them the shaft will be absolutely perfectly straight and the old deco-rings will be a perfect fit, or at least as good as they fitted originally. I've explained the procedure in detail in the past if anyone feels like digging it out.

Dick

 

[Mcues]

You should be able to acquire the exact inserts Tim used or has used in the last few years that would keep it close to original . Using the old inserts is just unnecessary and risky. The ringwork is given. What color is in-between the maple dashes?

Mario

 

[Guerra Cues]

Leon Sly has the Scruggs CNC shaft tapering machine and he can duplicate those shafts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ELBeau]

I use the tenon method any chance I get. Even my new cues use a Bocota tenon. When done as I do them the shaft will be absolutely perfectly straight and the old deco-rings will be a perfect fit, or at least as good as they fitted originally. I've explained the procedure in detail in the past if anyone feels like digging it out.

Dick

Dickie's method is described in a couple of different threads. I've saved the information in my log:

Salvaging old ringwork from a warped shaft
*good thread*

I seldom try to save deco-rings unless they are real odd and hard to build but if I must I do it very differently than what has been described so far. The way I do them you don't need to worry about getting the ring nor insert being concentric with the pin in the butt which is not necessarily always exactly centered. I put a small 60 deg bevel on the insert for a center and then with the shaft extended about four inches between the chuck and the 60 deg live center, I turn down the shaft to around .600 for two inches in front of the deco ring. I then cut this tenon and deco-ring off of the old shaft and screw onto the butt that I have now mounted into the lathe. I then glue this tenon into a new shaft that I have bored to .600 and center the ferrule in the tail stocks center insuring that the new shaft is perfectly straight with the butt. This makes the new shaft completely concentric with the cue as nothing has changed. The new shaft screws on to exactly the same as the original because it is the original. I make my last pass, bringing shaft to final size on the new shaft after all the deco-ring work is finished.

Dick

Pasted from http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=114776

Or

I usually make new rings but if they are oddball then what I often do is as follows:
1. I bore out the new shaft blank to approximately .525 to .550 2" deep.
2. I then chuck up the but in my lathe with the joint about 1" out of the
chuck and I put on the old shaft.
3. I then cut the shaft off a little longer than 2" from the bottom of the
deco-ring.
4. I then turn this stub down to the same size as the hole that I bored
into the new shaft blank, trim to length and glue the new shaft onto
this stub with the far end of the shaft centered in the tail-stock.
5. I then finish the shaft up in my normal way.

In doing it this way the same deco-ring and insert is used and they are still oriented to the butt the same way as the old shaft was. Now the deco-ring fits perfectly even if the pin is not exactly centered.

Dick

Pasted from http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=28342

 

[Cue Crazy]

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=209462&highlight=reusing+shaft+collar

Above is the only prior thread I found that may answer my question. The first responder advocates just taking the phenolic collar off the shaft, but the original poster proposes using a tenon.

I would think just taking the collar and isert out would make more sense.

Any opinions from cuemakers would be appreciated.

I have 2 cuemakers in mind for the work, one being Scot Sherbine at Proficient billiards. I'm not sure he builds shafts, but have seen his excellent refinishing work.

I was the OP in that thread. There were several other factors besides using the old ring work that convinced me to do the tenon on that cue. I would always go the standard route when possible or the best method, but in that situation I have no regrets in the method I used. It did work out very well. The hit felt fine, and after all was said and done the tenon and sidewalls held as well as any standard shaft that I have built.

I had to grind a special mini boring tool so that I could bore a tiny slot to slip some of the new shaft's side wall between the old ring work and tenon, but I feel that made It much stronger, and helped tie everything together.

The repair held up, but against My suggestion/warnings the guy kept the shaft stored in his hot car. That is what warped the original shaft, and why I suggested he not make the same mistake. Well, anyway after about 6 to 8 months It developed a warp down near the ferrule, the exact same place as the original shaft. You could lay the shafts side by side and The were identical, so however It was that he stored the new shaft must have been stored the same as he did the original one. He admitted to leaving It in his car, but as to why the warp was in the exact same place I don't know unless it was somehow wedged against something. Anyhow, even through all of that, the tenon method used to attach the ring work and insert to the new shaft held up perfectly. The glue also seemed to have held up to the heat.

Like I mentioned though there were several factors that lead me to do that particular shaft that way. I would normally bore the old ring work out and slip It on the new shaft or make new ring work as others here have suggested. One of those are probably the best method in this situation, and is also much easier then what I had to do on that shaft. It should not be a big issue for most cue mechanics to handle for you, but until you run the handles in the lathe you won't know for sure what all will need done.

Greg

 

[cuemonster]

You should be able to acquire the exact inserts Tim used or has used in the last few years that would keep it close to original . Using the old inserts is just unnecessary and risky. The ringwork is given. What color is in-between the maple dashes?

Mario

The one cue is black, phenolic or plastic (don't know what was used then, and I don't vuild cues). The other is red and blach dashes that run along the length of the cue.

 

[cuemonster]

Leon Sly has the Scruggs CNC shaft tapering machine and he can duplicate those shafts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks I may seek out Mr. Sly. If anyone has his info please send it along. I'd like to get these as close as possible to a they were made then, having the TS taper from the same machine wout go along with that.

So there is nobody working in the TS shop now? Is it true Mike Frey passed this year? And Mr. Scruggs is 79-80 years old now, correct?

I was on his website today, looking through pictures of about 150 cues they had sold. Just such a variety of cues made, traditional 4 point veneer, Hoppe, merry widow, wrapless and all with a wide variety of ringwork. That's why I like these cues, the ringwork by the joints just screams Scruggs, from back when he developed the design. I saw many cues like these and wrapless cues usng the lightly stained figured maple one piece for the forearm and butt, that was also a theme in many of his cues construction.

Thanks to all, a lot of expertise here. I'll repost pictures when I have the cue redone.

 

[nick serdula]

I have to say.

Every TS Custom Cue has Timi's trademark.
This was something Timi believed. If he built it he logoed it. He did build a very few unlogoed cues for friends like Joe Salazar.
No logo, no Scruggs. If Timi rembers differantly I will be sure to relay it but can't gaurentee rembering to ask.
Nick

 

[dave sutton]

I had an TS with no logo. One of the first few out of the shop in 78. He wrote me a letter and confirmed it was his cue. Offered to logo the cue for me but I declined

 

[cuemonster]

Every TS Custom Cue has Timi's trademark.
This was something Timi believed. If he built it he logoed it. He did build a very few unlogoed cues for friends like Joe Salazar.
No logo, no Scruggs. If Timi rembers differantly I will be sure to relay it but can't gaurentee rembering to ask.
Nick

Sir you are VERY wrong on this one.

In extensive searching of TS cues I have seen several no logo cues. Blue book of cues says in 78-early 79 he many cues without logos, mostly plainer cues like these 2. This is a paragrapgh from the online BBOC's website regarding the first years of Scruggs cues:

"In 1978, Tim decided to start making cues of his own. He went to visit with another young cuemaker, and friend, for many years. After this visit, Tim returned to Baltimore to set up shop. Bob Fry, a friend of Tim´s since the sixth grade, offered to help Tim to start making cues. That same year, Tim Scruggs Custom Cues was founded in an old meat storage building on the outer edge of Baltimore.

Early Tim Scruggs cues were similar to the cues he was making at Joss, but they were unmarked. Soon his cues developed their own unique style, and began a series of ongoing improvements. By the early 1980s, an intertwined "TS" was being stamped on the Delrin butt caps."

When the first catalog came out in 1980 the first cue below on the left was very similar to the cue on the bottoom of photo with the black then white then black thin ring at the butt cap. It isn't repeated up the cue. I've seen the thin black and white rings on the butts of his cues for his entire history.

The fancy ringwork near the joint on my cues are in essentially the same pateern as cues 9 +10 from the left. These are classic Scruggs 5 layer rings, that since the earliest cues predominantly includes silver rings. Who else was making fancy rings in this pattern at this time? To me the rings were part of his identity as a cuemaker, that continued until his retirement. That makes these unmarked cues some of the first that were constructed in this manner.

The hardware on these 2 cues including the buttcap, bumpers, steel joints and brass insets are the same as many early stamped TS Srcuggs that I have seen.

See this first catalog from january 1980 is shown below from classiccues website. The detail of the cues can be seen with much more clarity on their site, including the black white black rings at the base of cue 1. Check the following link:
http://www.classiccues.com/graphics/cues/cue_related/cues_brochures/ts_1980_inside1_hi.jpg

These cues are vintage, as evidenced by their current condition. Did somebody copy scruggs cues at a time when he was just starting out, knowing someday he'd be one of the greats? Sounds far fetched to me sir.

 

[cuemonster]

I had an TS with no logo. One of the first few out of the shop in 78. He wrote me a letter and confirmed it was his cue. Offered to logo the cue for me but I declined

Mr. Sutton, can you post pictures of that cue or at least descibe it as you remember?
Thanks.