dave sutton
Banned
Sure...
reusing shaft collars
- Thread starter cuemonster
- Start date
cuemonster
Banned
Thanks Dave
Now that cue definitely has the vintage Joss look with the maple blocks in the butt sleve, just as the BBoC's described as being "similiar to the cues he made at Joss cues". Very nice cue.
Then he went on to develop his own line of cues with a different look. I firmly believe that these 2 cues are from that period of time. Who else was making cues with ringwork like this in the late 1970's?
Now that cue definitely has the vintage Joss look with the maple blocks in the butt sleve, just as the BBoC's described as being "similiar to the cues he made at Joss cues". Very nice cue.
Then he went on to develop his own line of cues with a different look. I firmly believe that these 2 cues are from that period of time. Who else was making cues with ringwork like this in the late 1970's?
You have to take a step back and listen to what you are saying. If you remover the collars and put the on new shafts you have not preserved any originality, they are still new shafts and no longer original. If your intent is to preserve the Scruggs originality and value just get new shafts so you can play with the cue and put the old shafts away for safe keeping. I have sold a lot of collectible cues and the new owners are always happy to get the original shafts no matter what their condition. You then have the new shafts and old shafts as one big package representing the greatest overall value. Plus, the collars are not that hard to duplicate for the new shafts.
cuemonster
Banned
Understood. I was thinking at this level of cue the potential sale value may not warrant making up new shafts with matching ringwork. Then again I really haven;t seen Scruggs cues for sale that were this early and unmarked. That plus his retirement might be worth something, hard to say. I'll be happy just restoring these cues and knowing they are still out there being played.
The cues arrive here tomorrow in the mail so I'll have a better idea of the warpage. One is reportedly minor and the other is significant. The seller is a non-pooll player so hopefully his assessment will be worse than the condition they arrive in. I have come to prepare for the worst and hope for the best when taking on cues that may need work.
Last time I bought a cue for $500 and spent $800 getting it redone, but it was perfect then and I only made a few hundred. A one of a kind McDaniel so it was worth it because a big collector now has it.
More to come.
dave sutton
Banned
Well. To be 100% honest with you the 2 cues you have here are not that special. You aren't hurting value that bad bc value isn't really there. They are playing cues not collection cues. I had a little but of a time selling my cue with points and inlays.
It actually stirred up some controversy here bc one of the so called "respectable" dealers told me
My cue that was in perfect original unchalked cue was only worth 750$. Trying to pull a robbery and got caught. My cue still had original unchalked champion tips on it.
Button line is no matter what you do you aren't gonna hurt yourself that bad. No one will look at them and be blown away so it really only matters how much your willing to spend into them.
It actually stirred up some controversy here bc one of the so called "respectable" dealers told me
My cue that was in perfect original unchalked cue was only worth 750$. Trying to pull a robbery and got caught. My cue still had original unchalked champion tips on it.
Button line is no matter what you do you aren't gonna hurt yourself that bad. No one will look at them and be blown away so it really only matters how much your willing to spend into them.
cuemonster
Banned
Cues arrived today
Thanks Dave, I understand what you are saying. I didn't pay much for them and know how much to expect it to cost to refinish them.
So the cues arrived and they are awesome!
From what I see, these cues may never have been played, or at least hardly at all. No chalk discoloration in the shafts, tips appear original and full dimension and the rubber bumpers aren't worn at all. I think their condition was more an issue of improper storage that stained the wraps and caused the markings on the steel collars.
The red collar shaft is badly warped, in 2 different directions even. I will probably just have a new shaft made and reuse that collar on the new shaft. Fortunately the black shaft is pretty good, perfectly smooth and just a very minor taper roll. The butts are dead straight.
I spent 3 hours cleaning them up. The cues have ivory ferrules that cleaned to a brilliant white. I was able to clean the reddish/brown that partially covered a third of the red/black dash ring at the end of the one cue. It seemed to be a buildup of finish up against where the plastic ring raised up minutely. The stainless joints have just a little corrosion left, no pitting or rust. They cleaned up pretty good after I removed the little clear coat that was on them, the rust spots were under the finish. The collars will polish out perfectly on a high speed lathe.
The wrap is definately old Cortland. On the cue with the black rings the wrap is light beige with blue/green flecks and the red ring cue is a slightly darker beige with brown flecks.
I will be seeing Dan Dishaw at the Turning Stone Classic tournament tomorrow and will let him assess the cues. If he knows how to clean and press the these vintage wraps I'll have him do the refinish work. I have seen what Scot Sherbine at Proficient Billiards can do with restoring these wraps so I can use him if needed too.
I believe these cues to definitely be vintage Tim Scruggs late 1978-1979 cues, unmarked. I read that all of his early year cues came with ivory ferrules. I have read that most his early uunmarked cues had 5/16x18 threads, not 5/16x16 and these both do. The hardware used, athough common to many makers at the time is consistent with his early cues. The ringwork to me is all unmistakeably Scruggs, inluding the thin black/white/black rings on the black collar cue. That cue is essentially the same cue as the model 1 cue from his first catalog in 1980, just using more elaborate rings.
I find it really interesting to think of him building early cues like this and defining his designs. He repeated aspects of these rings and use of onepiece plain jane BEM butts throughout his career
Enjoy these pictures, I'll post some of the refinishes soon. Thanks for all the helpful advice here.
Thanks Dave, I understand what you are saying. I didn't pay much for them and know how much to expect it to cost to refinish them.
So the cues arrived and they are awesome!
From what I see, these cues may never have been played, or at least hardly at all. No chalk discoloration in the shafts, tips appear original and full dimension and the rubber bumpers aren't worn at all. I think their condition was more an issue of improper storage that stained the wraps and caused the markings on the steel collars.
The red collar shaft is badly warped, in 2 different directions even. I will probably just have a new shaft made and reuse that collar on the new shaft. Fortunately the black shaft is pretty good, perfectly smooth and just a very minor taper roll. The butts are dead straight.
I spent 3 hours cleaning them up. The cues have ivory ferrules that cleaned to a brilliant white. I was able to clean the reddish/brown that partially covered a third of the red/black dash ring at the end of the one cue. It seemed to be a buildup of finish up against where the plastic ring raised up minutely. The stainless joints have just a little corrosion left, no pitting or rust. They cleaned up pretty good after I removed the little clear coat that was on them, the rust spots were under the finish. The collars will polish out perfectly on a high speed lathe.
The wrap is definately old Cortland. On the cue with the black rings the wrap is light beige with blue/green flecks and the red ring cue is a slightly darker beige with brown flecks.
I will be seeing Dan Dishaw at the Turning Stone Classic tournament tomorrow and will let him assess the cues. If he knows how to clean and press the these vintage wraps I'll have him do the refinish work. I have seen what Scot Sherbine at Proficient Billiards can do with restoring these wraps so I can use him if needed too.
I believe these cues to definitely be vintage Tim Scruggs late 1978-1979 cues, unmarked. I read that all of his early year cues came with ivory ferrules. I have read that most his early uunmarked cues had 5/16x18 threads, not 5/16x16 and these both do. The hardware used, athough common to many makers at the time is consistent with his early cues. The ringwork to me is all unmistakeably Scruggs, inluding the thin black/white/black rings on the black collar cue. That cue is essentially the same cue as the model 1 cue from his first catalog in 1980, just using more elaborate rings.
I find it really interesting to think of him building early cues like this and defining his designs. He repeated aspects of these rings and use of onepiece plain jane BEM butts throughout his career
Enjoy these pictures, I'll post some of the refinishes soon. Thanks for all the helpful advice here.
Attachments
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dave sutton
Banned
they look to be in excellent original condition. i wouldnt get then refinished. spend 250 and get 2 new shafts and enjoy your cues. if someone car reproduce the ringwork better yet if not pop the rings and get 2 new shafts and play
cuemonster
Banned
I decided the black/white ring cue finish is really in great shape, so no refinish. I will just have the steel joint polished and finish the ringwork on both sides of the joint. That shaft just has the slight taper roll, but the patina and grain in that shaft is too good to lose.
The red/black ring cue's forearm is okay finish wise, it's the butt that will need refinishing. The ring near the buttcap is not smooth and I removed finish there to clean up part of that ring. This cue will be completely refinished. The shaft is shot and Leon Sly said the red material in the joint rings can't be obtaied anymore. So I will have the collar transferred to a new shaft, with an ivory ferrule.
Both cues need to have the Cortland wrap cleaned and pressed. They are both in good condition and the wrap is what really says old school on these cues.
They both have a great solid feel to them. Very well contructed. I'll probably hold onto the black/red cue and see if I can sell the other to cover purchase and refinish costs.
I'll post photos of the re-finished products.
dave sutton
Banned
I love the red one. It is very hard to find but some people have it. I do. But the problem with the red is it will never match. It is dark til you cut it then it changes color then gets dark again over time. Unless they pieces are cut at the same time from the same piece it will never match.
That's why I will often try to save the old finish on the ring work to use as a base for the new finish on the new shaft when at all possible, and not get down into the phenolic. Whether It can be saved or not depends on how bad off It is, and what type of finish was originally used, but sometimes you can keep It matched with the handle ring work without having to strip and refinish It at the same time.
cuemonster
Banned
I met with Dan Dishaw yesterday at the Turning Stone Classic tournament where he has a booth this week. He is going to take on this refinish and he is certainly up to the task. We did discuss that the red phenolic finish and it can't be matched or the original finish taken down into the phenolic, because of color changes. We decided to go ahead and just make 2 new shafts and transfer the collars. Even the black collar shaft was really to far warped. I'll go ahead and have ivory ferrules put on them as well, as they were originally.
He cleaned the Cortland wrap on the red collar cue and it came out perfectly. Repressed it is practically new, showing all of the brown specks in the classic style. Since it's fishing line it can withstand a lot of dirt and clean up. I haven't see the other wrap cleaned, but it will look great too.
As for the finish he recomended not taking it all the way down, because the patina and stain of the wood would be altered. He is going to buff the finish some and then apply a thin coat, nothing with too much luster either.
Best of all today when I met with him he calls Mr. Tim Scruggs himself and asks if he can send along photos of the cues for his ID. So I will sent the above photos to Mr. Scruggs through Dan and soon we'll have our answer. Dan noted the cues are very well constructed, althogh basic in design. These certainly weren't made by a rookie cuemaker. The forearms have a compound taper, which he found interesting.
In just a couple weeks these will be redone. I'll probably be selling at least one of these. I will repost photos here of the finished cues for all to see.
Thanks again to all who've helped me work through this, I appreciate it.
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dave sutton
Banned
Good. I think in this case bc new shafts can not be obtained by Tim you are not hurting anything by having a very reputable cuemaker replace the shaft. Tim doesn't have an affiliation like say Barry for Gus with the exception of maybe bob frey.
There is a good chance he made that cue anyway. He did all the sneakys for Tim back then. Im sure he made cues like this also. Lower end players
There is a good chance he made that cue anyway. He did all the sneakys for Tim back then. Im sure he made cues like this also. Lower end players
1978-79 Tim Scruggs Cue
Hi there I have a red one like the one shown here. I was wandering if there was a way to confirm that this is a prelogo 1978-79 Tim Scruggs cue. It has The same Cortland wrap as well as 5/16x18 pin. Everyone I talk to has told me that he only used 5/16x14 pin. Is there anyone who I can talk to that can help me identify this cue. I have posted lots of pictures on the main forum. Under "vintage unknown cue please help" thank you for reading this post
Hi there I have a red one like the one shown here. I was wandering if there was a way to confirm that this is a prelogo 1978-79 Tim Scruggs cue. It has The same Cortland wrap as well as 5/16x18 pin. Everyone I talk to has told me that he only used 5/16x14 pin. Is there anyone who I can talk to that can help me identify this cue. I have posted lots of pictures on the main forum. Under "vintage unknown cue please help" thank you for reading this post
The ringwork is identical to the red one on this pic
I would think Bob Frey would be your best bet. However, I would be shocked if
Tim made a cue with a 5/16 x 18 pin(but not electrocuted)
Dale
Here is my link to the similar cue. the only difference is I have ring work above the wrap and this one doesn't. This one on the other hand has ring work at the end of the butt and my cue doesn't. See for yourself
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=403365
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=403365