Reverse tenon ferrule on a wood shaft

[SSDiver2112]

While watching the latest Studiotronics cue making video I saw that he puts the tenon on the ferrule and screws it into the shaft. I know the carbon fiber shafts have a similar design, but I hadn't heard of this on a wooden shaft. Is this technique common or is he pioneering his or a new idea? Does it have any benefit for a wood shaft?

 

[tlcff8]

Enjoy watching your videos, keep up the good work

 

[kling&allen]

Hey it’s me, the talkative handsome guy in the videos

Thanks for all the feedback. I tested the ferrule implementation shown in this video fairly rigorously and never managed a cracked tenon. It felt strong, solid. Love the feel. Im pretty picky about shaft wood so maybe that comes into play. Dunno. I also tested juma 1/8, 1/4, 1/2. The amount of squirt difference was imperceptible (to me). I also tried LBM, aegis, elforyn, q4, resin ivory. A gajillion tapers.

(I actually care quite alot about what I’m doing in my small excessively hot Texas shop. Maybe I’m not conveying that on YouTube effectively)

Perhaps my tests are inadequate or done incorrectly. Maybe. Probably. I’ll be the first in line to say I am likely making tons of mistakes. Who knows. Self taught. Doing the best I can. Hedonistic 20s but the ole brain is chugging along. Since that video I’ve found a better way to do ferrules anyway. Not because of any perceived deficit, but just because I like to tinker and test new things. Way more fun this way. I don’t like to ask how to do things on forums, I like to figure it out on my own. And yes I’ve likely suffered greatly because of this. But it also gives me a deep understanding of cues in a really quick and efficient way. And it makes for better YouTube content.

It’s still early days for me. It’s all evergreen, living, changing. Every step of the process. Trying to improve the best I can while soaking it all in. I mention (often) that I consider myself a beginner. That’s not hyperbole. And if you ask me in ten years I’ll likely say the same thing. Lots to learn.

I don’t read/visit azbilliards, email is best if you ever wanna talk shop or have a question or whatever- studiotronicsYT at gmail.

Welcome and keep up the great work with the videos!

 

[Dave38]

And it makes for better YouTube content.

and that is the bottom line on this subject.....

 

[dendweller]

I decided to try it rather than speculating. Took a donator shaft, cut off below the ferrule, drilled it out a quarter inch around 5 inches. Made a cf style plug plate out of juma. I was surprised just how much lower the deflection was than my 13mm with a 3/4 inch juma ferrule. I find myself having to force myself to ignore the correction I'd normally make for inside english going down the rail. And just like the cf shafts I've tried, cutting a ball down the rail with low outside is over cutting the ball pretty substantially.
Who know how long it will hold together but it was an enjoyable test.

Edit, one caveat to this is that it's also a smaller diameter than my normal shaft, by about a millimeter. Not sure how much that accounts for. On the other hand, I've shot with this shaft with it's 1 inch ferrule and it didn't seem ld then so I'm guessing that the hollowing and smaller ferrule effected it a lot.

 

[PracticeChampion]

I decided to try it rather than speculating. Took a donator shaft, cut off below the ferrule, drilled it out a quarter inch around 5 inches. Made a cf style plug plate out of juma. I was surprised just how much lower the deflection was than my 13mm with a 3/4 inch juma ferrule. I find myself having to force myself to ignore the correction I'd normally make for inside english going down the rail. And just like the cf shafts I've tried, cutting a ball down the rail with low outside is over cutting the ball pretty substantially.
Who know how long it will hold together but it was an enjoyable test.

Edit, one caveat to this is that it's also a smaller diameter than my normal shaft, by about a millimeter. Not sure how much that accounts for. On the other hand, I've shot with this shaft with it's 1 inch ferrule and it didn't seem ld then so I'm guessing that the hollowing and smaller ferrule effected it a lot.

I didn't do mine with a player, but a break shaft and I seen no real changed in anything. Like I said earlier I only did it because McDermott did it first and I wanted to see why. Still don't really know why but it works fine

 

[dendweller]

I didn't do mine with a player, but a break shaft and I seen no real changed in anything. Like I said earlier I only did it because McDermott did it first and I wanted to see why. Still don't really know why but it works fine

Did you core the shaft?

 

[dendweller]

I didn't do mine with a player, but a break shaft and I seen no real changed in anything. Like I said earlier I only did it because McDermott did it first and I wanted to see why. Still don't really know why but it works fine

I don't really think that style of ferrule caused much of a difference in deflection, my hope was that mass wise, it was no more than a 3/4 juma ferrule. I think the difference I'm seeing is the hollow shaft. On the other hand, just more screwing around and speculating on my part.

The reason the ferrule makes sense in this case is you already have a 1/4 inch hole in the shaft, may as well use it.

 

[PracticeChampion]

Did you core the shaft?

No

 

[dendweller]

I didn't do mine with a player, but a break shaft and I seen no real changed in anything. Like I said earlier I only did it because McDermott did it first and I wanted to see why. Still don't really know why but it works fine

I did another that was a little over 13 mm. Definitely did not have the ld effect as the first so I think the smaller shaft had more to do with it than the coring. Hit's better than it did with that long ferrule, but not what I'd think of as ld.

 

[Sheldon]

I did another that was a little over 13 mm. Definitely did not have the ld effect as the first so I think the smaller shaft had more to do with it than the coring. Hit's better than it did with that long ferrule, but not what I'd think of as ld.

Try boring the 13mm shaft out 5/16ths and use as light of a ferrule as you can. Either very thin walled with a cap, or vault plate style like a carbon shaft.

 

[dendweller]

Try boring the 13mm shaft out 5/16ths and use as light of a ferrule as you can. Either very thin walled with a cap, or vault plate style like a carbon shaft.

Thanks, I will.

 

[ideologist]

Hey it’s me, the talkative handsome guy in the videos

Thanks for all the feedback. I tested the ferrule implementation shown in this video fairly rigorously and never managed a cracked tenon. It felt strong, solid. Love the feel. Im pretty picky about shaft wood so maybe that comes into play. Dunno. I also tested juma 1/8, 1/4, 1/2. The amount of squirt difference was imperceptible (to me). I also tried LBM, aegis, elforyn, q4, resin ivory. A gajillion tapers.

(I actually care quite alot about what I’m doing in my small excessively hot Texas shop. Maybe I’m not conveying that on YouTube effectively)

Perhaps my tests are inadequate or done incorrectly. Maybe. Probably. I’ll be the first in line to say I am likely making tons of mistakes. Who knows. Self taught. Doing the best I can. Hedonistic 20s but the ole brain is chugging along. Since that video I’ve found a better way to do ferrules anyway. Not because of any perceived deficit, but just because I like to tinker and test new things. Way more fun this way. I don’t like to ask how to do things on forums, I like to figure it out on my own. And yes I’ve likely suffered greatly because of this. But it also gives me a deep understanding of cues in a really quick and efficient way. And it makes for better YouTube content.

It’s still early days for me. It’s all evergreen, living, changing. Every step of the process. Trying to improve the best I can while soaking it all in. I mention (often) that I consider myself a beginner. That’s not hyperbole. And if you ask me in ten years I’ll likely say the same thing. Lots to learn.

I don’t read/visit azbilliards, email is best if you ever wanna talk shop or have a question or whatever- studiotronicsYT at gmail.

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1/2" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh your solid ferrule with plug tenon

You'll find significant difference in the weight, and this does effect shaft performance and how it plays

 

[dendweller]

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1/2" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh your solid ferrule with plug tenon

You'll find significant difference in the weight, and this does effect shaft performance and how it plays

the 13 I did with a maple tenon and a 1/2 inch ferrule. Figured the maple was less than the juma so I gave that a try.

I know juma weighs pretty much twice as much as dry maple. The upside of the plug is that it's only got a 1/4 inch showing and maybe 3/4 by a little over 1/4 going into the shaft. Next time I'll do one I'll weigh them and see

 

[JoeyInCali]

I like it simple but stable

 

[dendweller]

Try boring the 13mm shaft out 5/16ths and use as light of a ferrule as you can. Either very thin walled with a cap, or vault plate style like a carbon shaft.

Did another, just under 13mm with 5/16, made a difference. Don't know how long it will last but if I didn't know it was hollow I don't think I'd be able to tell from the hit.

 

[dendweller]

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1/2" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh your solid ferrule with plug tenon

You'll find significant difference in the weight, and this does effect shaft performance and how it plays

I have basically a digital kitchen scale. I weighed a capped juma ferrule and the plug I made. The capped ferrule was probably twice the weight but it hadn't been installed so it had bulk on it that would be removed. And to be honest, at that weight, I'm not sure my scale is a good comparison.

Hopefully it's clear I'm just messing around. Was on the verge of buying a vantage shaft because once in a while I get the urge to check out an ld shaft again. Figured I have enough shafts around I don't use, maybe I'll see if I can cobble one together instead. Saved me the 260 for the partial I was going to buy and gave me something to do.

 

[dendweller]

While watching the latest Studiotronics cue making video I saw that he puts the tenon on the ferrule and screws it into the shaft. I know the carbon fiber shafts have a similar design, but I hadn't heard of this on a wooden shaft. Is this technique common or is he pioneering his or a new idea? Does it have any benefit for a wood shaft?

Was talking to someone yesterday that has a tsunami shaft for sale. I looked into the rjh website to check them out, appears he uses that method, calls it a vault plate instead of a plug but appears to be the same idea. He's doing it in kielwood shafts.

 

[studiotronics]

I just moved a 1300 pound lathe roughly 18 feet and up one stair using a pry bar and a couple metal pipes. My back will never be the same


Evaporust is some cool stuff. And there was 1 live wasp, 2 dead bees, a bird's nest (?), and around 20 years worth of grime. 3 days of cleanup and painting, and its much better now

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh a 13mm ferrule that is 1/2" long with a 3/8" hole bored through

Weigh your solid ferrule with plug tenon

You'll find significant difference in the weight, and this does effect shaft performance and how it plays

Right. That was the expected outcome on paper. When I tested it, I couldn't notice a difference discernible enough to change something. Maybe you're a much better player than me and you'd notice a huge change. Your shaft would end up different than mine and that's awesome. Cue making doesn't have to be homogeneous.

I don't think millimeters of ferrule difference matter. After a couple of racks, you've subconsciously adjusted to the tiny nuance between each variation. I didn't miss that last shot because my Juma ferrule weighed .0002 more than it should. I missed because I was distracted by the pretty girl two tables over, or my stroke was 1/2 tip off center, or I kneejerk corrected at the end of my stroke, my shape wasn't optimal from the last pocketed ball, that one rail is dead when will they fix it, the felt isn't taken care of in this shitty place, these pockets are too small, my hands are sweaty, they pulled this simonis too tight. I've been playing pool for 3 decades with some really talented pool players and these are the reasons people lose control of the table.

Maybe I should call my shafts "LD ish". I want them to have LD characteristics. But not at the expense of sound, vibration, feel, etc... If that means my shaft will have 1/20th more deflection, I'm 100% okay with this. Squirt is something every player subconsciously accounts for anyway, to what degree is determined by his shaft, but we all do it.

I did another that was a little over 13 mm. Definitely did not have the ld effect as the first so I think the smaller shaft had more to do with it than the coring. Hit's better than it did with that long ferrule, but not what I'd think of as ld.

Yea, the shaft in question is ideal between 12 and 12.5. I think I'd change the taper and ferrule if I ever had to make a 13mm variation. I have a player who loves this shaft at 11.75 but that's just too thin for me. And I love that you went out and made it so you could see for yourself. Some of Mezz’s shafts several years ago used this same concept and their hole is tiny and deep. If I remember correctly it was over 5 inches deep and thinner than 1/4. Their ferrules aren’t Juma however.

I like it simple but stable

Nice pics Joey, I'm sure they play great. It's personal preference. I used to do ferrules that way. I felt like they were just...shafts. Not terrible, not mindblowing, something in the middle. Good, solid, reliable. But I iterate on the butt, why not on the shaft?


My current ferrule implementation is a more traditional threaded (not reversed) variation (pic above). Form follows function... The ferrule made more sense this way because I changed how I core out the end.

I can also guess from these pics that I prefer denser shaft wood and more grain lines than Joey. Dunno. I try to hit 3.5oz+...although there doesn't seem to be any correlation between wood density and not warping, but I do like the weight more, I like the visual (pretty!), and I think they sound better. Personal preference. Vibration changes also.



I damn near crushed my fingers removing this Clausing's 8" chuck so I'm off to make a cradle.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I just moved a 1300 pound lathe roughly 18 feet and up one stair using a pry bar and a couple metal pipes. My back will never be the same
View attachment 691023 View attachment 691024 View attachment 691025

Evaporust is some cool stuff. And there was 1 live wasp, 2 dead bees, a bird's nest (?), and around 20 years worth of grime. 3 days of cleanup and painting, and its much better now



Right. That was the expected outcome on paper. When I tested it, I couldn't notice a difference discernible enough to change something. Maybe you're a much better player than me and you'd notice a huge change. Your shaft would end up different than mine and that's awesome. Cue making doesn't have to be homogeneous.

I don't think millimeters of ferrule difference matter. After a couple of racks, you've subconsciously adjusted to the tiny nuance between each variation. I didn't miss that last shot because my Juma ferrule weighed .0002 more than it should. I missed because I was distracted by the pretty girl two tables over, or my stroke was 1/2 tip off center, or I kneejerk corrected at the end of my stroke, my shape wasn't optimal from the last pocketed ball, that one rail is dead when will they fix it, the felt isn't taken care of in this shitty place, these pockets are too small, my hands are sweaty, they pulled this simonis too tight. I've been playing pool for 3 decades with some really talented pool players and these are the reasons people lose control of the table.

Maybe I should call my shafts "LD ish". I want them to have LD characteristics. But not at the expense of sound, vibration, feel, etc... If that means my shaft will have 1/20th more deflection, I'm 100% okay with this. Squirt is something every player subconsciously accounts for anyway, to what degree is determined by his shaft, but we all do it.



Yea, the shaft in question is ideal between 12 and 12.5. I think I'd change the taper and ferrule if I ever had to make a 13mm variation. I have a player who loves this shaft at 11.75 but that's just too thin for me. And I love that you went out and made it so you could see for yourself. Some of Mezz’s shafts several years ago used this same concept and their hole is tiny and deep. If I remember correctly it was over 5 inches deep and thinner than 1/4. Their ferrules aren’t Juma however.



Nice pics Joey, I'm sure they play great. It's personal preference. I used to do ferrules that way. I felt like they were just...shafts. Not terrible, not mindblowing, something in the middle. Good, solid, reliable. But I iterate on the butt, why not on the shaft?

View attachment 691046
My current ferrule implementation is a more traditional threaded (not reversed) variation (pic above). Form follows function... The ferrule made more sense this way because I changed how I core out the end.

I can also guess from these pics that I prefer denser shaft wood and more grain lines than Joey. Dunno. I try to hit 3.5oz+...although there doesn't seem to be any correlation between wood density and not warping, but I do like the weight more, I like the visual (pretty!), and I think they sound better. Personal preference. Vibration changes also.

View attachment 691047

I damn near crushed my fingers removing this Clausing's 8" chuck so I'm off to make a cradle.

3.5 oz is pretty easy, even without inserts and 1mm taper to the middle.
You can't tell shafts' stiffness and density from pictures.

I prefer no cap ferrules and use paper Phenolic liner these days.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I collar and cap shafts and butts , pretty much the same way.
But, a T capped collar would work too.
Or bottom cap
You just need to find phenolic rods or juma.
I know at least one maker who prefers T capped joint collars.