Rogue cue technician

bob_bushka said:
I see there are some believers in $20 Moori's, lol. As far as charging what he wants and free market I am all for it. However, the guys that are blogging that kindred spirit(especially the cue techs and cuemakers) would certainly grimace if they traveled 400 miles, paid a booth fee, 3 nites of motels and meals and got to say, "that will be $20 bucks, thank you very much." And maybe $375 is too high for a pool cue case, especially at my booth?
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$375 is too high for some cases and too low for others. You're not talking to a a novice here. I bet I have logged as many miles or more than most of you on the road doing tournaments and shows.

I understand the business just fine. I have had to fade people selling "leather" cases for half my prices. I have had customers tell me flat out that they could get the "same" case two booths down for half what I was charging.

I used to put on tips for people at tournaments before I got into the cue case business. Sorry there is just not that much to it. In addition some of the best in the business are my customers and friends. I don't begrudge them the right to charge what they want to charge but I will tell them flat out that I think they are stealing (meant in a good natured way) if they are getting 20 and up for installing tips. At those prices it's no wonder that there are so many people who want to get into the retipping business.

Which brings us to another point, in business when prices are high and barriers to entry are low it invites a lot of competition. The barrier to entry for being able to put on tips is low. Over here they do it with a piece of sandpaper, glue, pressure from the thumb, and a steel file. When they are done in 10 minutes the tip looks like it was done on a lathe.

They put on Mooris, Kamuis, Snipers, Le Pros, whatever and the charge is either zero or maybe $2. This is done in the pool rooms as a service to the customers by the ordinary staff of the pool rooms mostly.

Personally I have always felt that the traveling repairman has it tough. I have seen Teddy Harris work his fingers off from the time the Super Billiards Expo opened until it closed three days later, 60 hours with hardly a break. I have seen Steve Lomax and Joe Blackburn buried under repairs. When work is there then is definitely work.

On the other hand I have seen Leonard Bludworth put on tips one after the other for an hour cracking jokes and getting women to show him their boobs while paying for the tip job. After every five minute job he'd wink at me and say "easy money baby" and he had a line of customers.

You complain about a new guy but how do you think that these guys felt? They were the pioneers of the traveling cue repair business. Now every tournament they show up to there are several people doing it.

It's a free market. It's tough when competitors show up and have lower prices. But to tell a competitor that he should raise his prices to match yours is called price fixing and it's illegal. The consumer has the right to choice and the merchant has to prove to the consumer WHY they should pay the higher price for a comparable product or service.

I had to prove why my cue cases were worth twice the price of the knockoffs and I did. Even though every year there were more and more booths selling knockoffs for a fraction of my prices I still sold more every year. We had to work a little harder but the payoff was every year I had repeat business with people bringing their friends to buy cases.
 
That's the thing. You say the same product or service but alot of times it is not. I have watched repair guys butcher shafts and ferrules. Explode shafts by turning on the lathe with it up 100% speed. Drench shafts in water (wood that is suppose to be dry) and call it a cleaning. It's gross.

Basically this is why i started doing repair and ultimately building cues. I thought I could do better. You do get what you pay for. An for my money if I don't do it Joe Blackburn and steve lomax is the only one I let touch my cue. I'd rather give them $40 then anyone else $20. Hell. I've bought them food and drinks just for being there.
 
dave sutton said:
That's the thing. You say the same product or service but alot of times it is not. I have watched repair guys butcher shafts and ferrules. Explode shafts by turning on the lathe with it up 100% speed. Drench shafts in water (wood that is suppose to be dry) and call it a cleaning. It's gross.

Basically this is why i started doing repair and ultimately building cues. I thought I could do better. You do get what you pay for. An for my money if I don't do it Joe Blackburn and steve lomax is the only one I let touch my cue. I'd rather give them $40 then anyone else $20. Hell. I've bought them food and drinks just for being there.
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tap,tap,tap
 
dave sutton said:
That's the thing. You say the same product or service but alot of times it is not. I have watched repair guys butcher shafts and ferrules. Explode shafts by turning on the lathe with it up 100% speed. Drench shafts in water (wood that is suppose to be dry) and call it a cleaning. It's gross.

Basically this is why i started doing repair and ultimately building cues. I thought I could do better. You do get what you pay for. An for my money if I don't do it Joe Blackburn and steve lomax is the only one I let touch my cue. I'd rather give them $40 then anyone else $20. Hell. I've bought them food and drinks just for being there.
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Don't misunderstand me. I didn't say "same" product or service, I said comparable.

I have seen the same thing with people butchering tips.

That's not the point. If someone has earned a reputation for providing a service that's worth premium money they should get it but not demand that everyone else charge what they charge.

Let's take this current situation and say that newbie cue repair guy is a butcher. Well what's the difference if he charges $20 or $40 to put on a tip? If he charges $40 then a customer gets a $40 hack job.

I am assuming that there are customers who don't know the relative reputations of the repair guys. I am further assuming that the expensive one doesn't have a sign out that says "doing repairs since 1988" and "millions of tips installed" to alert customers as to his experience level.

So if that's the case then the only real criteria the consumer has to go on is the price difference. A discerning consumer will ask why the price is $40 for one and $20 for the other and if they choose the $20 job and it's terrible then they only have themselves to blame for going "cheap".

But if the two repair people are equally good then why should the customer's price choice be taken away?

I agree with you that when someone has a good reputation then it's worth the extra money for peace of mind. No doubt. But you will never get me to agree to price fixing. I firmly believe that every person offering a service or good has a responsibility to alert the consumers as to WHY their service or product is worth the money they want.

Imagine if I came on this forum and complained about "newbie" case makers who undercut my prices and how aggravated I was about that.

I would get tarred and feathered. Multiple times. Why is this any different?

And as much as I LOVE Steve Lomax and Joe Blackburn $40 to put on a tip is way out of line, in my opinion. (I don't know that they charge this, I am just going off the price mentioned in the original post.) I am sure I am going to catch some flack from them but that's how I feel. I have no problem however giving up $150 to put on a leather wrap.
 
I don't think 40$ for a moori everest or other premium layered to is out of line. Wholesale this tips sell for a fraction sure but it's a once a year cost (providing your not going to town on you tip after every shot like some do) lol

After glue sandpaper pad gas mileage hotel (BEER) booth cost they aren't getting rich trust me. There is alot of hidden cost into that 40$ job that the customer can't possibly understand. Not to mention theyre prob 15$ invested before the job is started.

I know you can insert motto here_____ like... "thats the price of doing business" or "you gotta spend money to make money"

I just don't think it's out of line.

I am on both sides of this. First when I do repairs :-) I am too cheap. 25$ but I usually only with repair my cues I made u less your a really good friend.

On the other hand John I will pay 400$ for your case over 200$ for a look alike "leatherette" case bc I know the different in quality.

Everyday and twice on Sunday.
 
I think we are talking about two different types of cue repair people.
1. The part time, hobby person who feels that any money they make is a bonus and
2. The full time repair (maybe builder) that relies on the work to feed himself and family.

If you are looking at this as a hobby and get $20 for putting on a Moori tip you have made some money (not much) and it probably goes into your kitty for new pool toys.

If you need to feed your family, and treat this as a business, it is a different story. I believe that if you pay $10 for a tip, you need to make a profit when you sell the tip. I don't know of a business (tire store, garage, Atlas, retail store of any type) that does not make a profit on parts. So lets say you put the price of the tip at $20, you are then making a profit on your initial investment. If you normally charge $20 to install a layered tip you are now at $40.

I don't think that is an unreasonable price for a good, layered tip.
 
Well I know how you feel there! In the room where my shop is located. There is a newbie getting into the business! The newbie asked for a price on teaching him how to build cues. I gave him a price on teaching him everything I know about bulding and repairing cues! He agreeed! So I took him for his word and started showing him how to do a few things before any money changed hands! Took him for his word! After all that is what we are made of! OUR WORD! Well lets just say he is no longer coming into my shop! Normally I dont charge to help someone in the business. But when it is in my back yard..... Anyway the moral to this is, I am starting to see customers come back to my shop now because of the newbie not having a clue and just because his prices was cheaper the quality of work wasnt even close! . I have even had someone that just bought a cue from him come in and buy a cue from me. So what I am saying is just sit back and be patient and let them cut there own throat! Because that is what is going to happen. And always remember your WORD is all you have in the end!
 
Hang in there Bob. Lot's of good info here. Still, I think John makes a good point. There are always gonna be guys lined up willing to do your job for less, so you have to figure out a way to be better.

First, you have to find a way to lower your costs. Like many have mentioned, getting the tips for less. There is always a half open box of tips or cheaper source for tips.

Second, I wouldn't over think this too much. Frankly, 70+% of the guys who come to you for a Moori or the next $20 gizmo tip might be real happy if you turned them back to a triangle, triumph, emerald, etc. Since when does the average Joe, or anyone need a $25 tip?

Third, frankly, I see a lot of people who bust real hard to make a big profit for a while. Then they slow down their aggression and pass the cost of slowing down their aggresssion towards finding the best way to be in business onto the customer.

Last, I had a guy put a WB tip on for me in about 5 min with a lathe. If he was charging $20 to install, that would be $240 /hr + profit on the tip. Frankly, I think you should figure out with all your expenses, what it really costs to install a tip. Then, I think you should sell the tip for 2 x what you pay for it. That should be about 25% over the online retai price. Maybe you need to find a cheaper way to get tips, I don't know. Your time is where you need to make the most money. I think it would be valuable to time yourself so you can figure out how long a tip is taking. Then figure out how to arrange your process to reduce that time per tip. Finally, the upper limit for a tip installer's time is probably $100 per hour, but what do I know.

If you could average 6 per hour, that would be like $17 for the install + $6 for an Emerald tip. Do you see how that would get you in the ballpark of $20? An Emerald tip isn't a Moori, but I think your customers might on average be happier that you introduced them to a good playing cheaper tip. You could still do Mooris, but they would probably be closer to $40ish.

I do my own, and the reason is the reason John stated. The barriers to entry arre low for a moderately skilled craftsman. You can do a pretty good job with basic tools, sandpaper and time. My system is under $100 and it includes a Porper Big Shaver. . .
 
In my hardware store I get people who come in and want a cheap gallon of paint. The cheapest gallon we have is 13.00 (when the average is 25 to 40 for the better paint) The odd thing about it is that some people really expect the 13 dollar gallon of paint to be just as good as the 40???? Which just goes back to the "you get what you pay for" argument.
 
I think another area that the customer doesn't take into consideration is our beloved tax man. I know many build cues and do repairs under the table. We all have to compete with those. If you're doing this stuff on the square, you have to fade the business liscense fee's,City/County taxes, State and federal taxes, Sales tax, insurance, etc. There's more in the price of a tip change than Cost of material and labor to do the job. I know those things don't really concern the customer, but it can be tough to compete.

What really bothers me at times, is when a customer brings me a tip to install, and I find out that they got it cheaper than what my last order was. Most of the vendors we use will sell the same products that we buy to any human with a credit card without any kind of tax numbers or liscense or they allow thier dealers to sell their product at less than retail. Retail on a Sniper tip is 17.95, but anyone can buy them all day on e-bay for around 9-10 bucks from one of Tiger's dealers. As long as this stuff goes on, we'll have to fade the "new" tip guy that undercuts your price by $10. JMO.
 
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