"Rosewood"

[Pre-Flag Master]

I've been reading some about wood on this website...

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/index.htm

I have noticed many woods of different species look similar to each other. Sounds like identifying wood can be very tricky sometimes. Also many woods use similar names - in some of these cases the woods looking similar to each other and some not. And I see there are many specific varieties of rosewood.

I know often times a cue was made with a specific kind of rosewood and this will be stated, such as East Indian Rosewood. And I know some rosewoods don't have the word "rosewood" in the name, such as Cocobolo.

Here's the question: In the context of the world of cues, when someone sells or makes a cue with no specific name of the wood other than "rosewood", what kind of rosewood does that usually mean?

Thank you
Fatz

 

[danutz]

East indian, brazilian. Cocobola is referred to as cocobola, or as i like to call it, cinnamon

 

[qbilder]

I have seen cues labelled as "rosewood" but be one of numerous types. In many cases, a builder will buy some nice looking rosewood and have it for years, then forget what it is except that it's a type of rosewood. There are probably hundreds of different varieties of rosewood around the globe. I have in my shop cocobolo (3-4 different variations from different regions), kingwood, tulipwood, EI rose, Braz rose, Honduran, Yukatan, Mayan, two types of Madagascar, kam-phi, cochen, African blackwood, blackwood from Asia, etc. There's probably a dozen or more types if I dug through it all. There are at least a few I have that I cannot identify.

Identification isn't easy, or really even necessary for a player. All rosewoods hit great & are perfect for cues. For builders, it just takes time & experience to learn. The most common mis-identification is wenge & black palm. Every time somebody sees wenge in a cue, folks argue that it's black palm. Experience with the two makes it very easy to identify, but if you didn't know any better, they do look similar. Pheasant wood also looks just like wenge. And you also must consider that a lot of these woods are virtually the same, but geographically different & therefore slightly genetically different because of the separation. Each region will call it something else. For instance, dalbergia lafitolia grows in Madagascar, Indonesia, India, & even in Florida. It's considered East Indian rosewood in the market, but can be very much different depending on where it came from. Cocobolo grows all up & down the west coast of central & south America, and differs greatly from one region to the next. But it's all sold as cocobolo.

 

[QMAKER]

Rosewood

Another wood that gets confused is "Camatillo Rosewood". A lot of times it is sold as "Mexican Kingwood". In any case it is beautiful and a great cue wood. It also smells good when cutting but it is getting hard to find.

The rarest piece of rosewood I had was called Cochinchin. I have only ever
seen 1 piece in cue building size. I agree with the other poster who said that when the word "rosewood" is used by itself it is usually East Indian.​

 

[Chopdoc]

Here's the question: In the context of the world of cues, when someone sells or makes a cue with no specific name of the wood other than "rosewood", what kind of rosewood does that usually mean?

Thank you
Fatz

Personally, I don't think it means much. :smile:


.

 

[rheester]

Personally, I don't think it means much. :smile:


.

i beg to differ. it does matter in the sense of density. all rosewoods are great tone woods and make great cues, but some are much more dense than others, of course there is variation within species as well. but for the most part, from my experience, EIR is much lighter in weight than, lets just say, african blackwood.

in this context, it most definitely matters because of weight distribution, whether you decide to core or not, etc.

for example, and i'm sure many would agree, making a full splice cue of maple and EIR vs maple and african blackwood, the blackwood cue would be much heavier and back weighted.

 

[MVPCues]

Personally, I don't think it means much. :smile:


.

To a large extent, I agree with you. That is, I agree that someone saying so and so is made of "rosewood" means little.

Lumber properties (density, tone, etc) are not what strictly defines the genus of a tree. Things like leaf structure, growth habits, senescence patterns, etc, play a large part in defining plant taxonomy. That is why there is a considerable range of densities across the very large number of Dalbergia species. Because of this, without knowing the specific species of rosewood used in a cue, to an extent, you might as well simply say it is built using a solid cue quality piece of wood. If the builder knows it is a member of the Dalbergia species, then certainly, call it a rosewood. But, that doesn't necessarily nail down certain properties the cue will be instilled with.

To add to this, Bolivian rosewood is used (somewhat sparingly) in cues, and it is not a Dalbergia species. There are other names it is known by, but Bolivian rosewood sounds ooooh so much better when describing a cue (or the raw lumber for that matter). It isn't a rosewood. Does anyone care? Probably not, but that leads one to ask what is in a name? Bubinga is sometimes called African rosewood. It isn't a rosewood either, and further from it than Bolivian rosewood is. African blackwood is a rosewood. Why isn't it called African rosewood instead? I think because being black, it doesn't have a typical "rosewood" look that is shared by many of the other rosewood species. This type of thing has led to certain trade names being applied to certain species for marketing reasons.

To try and answer the OP's original question, I think if something is referred to as only "rosewood", and it IS actually a rosewood, IMO it is most likely east indian rosewood. But, there are hundreds of Dalbergia species.

Kelly

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

Personally, I don't think it means much. :smile:


.

Doc

I assume you mean that "rosewood" is such a broad term that it could mean many different things and so by itself essentially it has no value as a description?

If there is a consensus to my original question, so far it seems to be East Indian Rosewood. I'm surprised by that. I thought if the isolated term "rosewood" did define a default species, it would be something from South or Central America.

Fatz

 

[Chopdoc]

i beg to differ. it does matter in the sense of density.

I didn't say it does not matter. He asked what it meant and I said it didn't mean much. Certainly it matters.

In other words, the term is too broad to derive much meaning from IMHO. It only differentiates it from other woods while leaving a huge unknown as far as what type of rosewood it might be.

In other words, you seem to agree with me. :smile:


.

 

[Chopdoc]

Doc

I assume you mean that "rosewood" is such a broad term that it could mean many different things and so by itself essentially it has no value as a description?

I say it does not mean much. Does it have value as a description? Yes, somewhat. It differentiates it from other woods. In other words I know it's not curly maple or ebony. So it has some value as a description, but only to differentiate it from other woods. Beyond that it does not mean much by itself.

We might assume something from it, but assumptions can be wrong, especially when the term is so broad.

:smile:


.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

I say it does not mean much. Does it have value as a description? Yes, somewhat. It differentiates it from other woods. In other words I know it's not curly maple or ebony. So it has some value as a description, but only to differentiate it from other woods. Beyond that it does not mean much by itself.

We might assume something from it, but assumptions can be wrong, especially when the term is so broad.

:smile:


.

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant, other than the part I got wrong, I mean, you know, I know... right?

 

[Chopdoc]

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant, other than the part I got wrong, I mean, you know, I know... right?

:thumbup:

I think I know what I think you thought I might have thought I meant.....I think....

 

[avscue]

the term "rosewoood" here seems to be more of a marketing choice. there are a lot of dalbergia but only a few grow to be big enough for lumber. lumber importers seem to give the name "rosewood" to replacements or substitutes of dalbergia that can't be had (bolivian, Burmese, etc.). i've run across cuemakers that have no idea what kind of rosewood they used but that's how it was sold to them. the most common "rosewoods(dalbergia)" seem to be cocobolo, east indian, honduran, yucatan, and african blackwood.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

the most common "rosewoods(dalbergia)" seem to be cocobolo, east indian, honduran, yucatan, and african blackwood.

In the cases of cocobolo and african blackwood, I am thinking that cues with these woods would not be described as having "rosewood". The seller or cue maker would actually use the terms "cocobolo" or "african blackwood" don't you think?

Now here's another "vote" for East Indian.

BTW, here is an interesting article from the website I mentioned above...

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_discussion_rosewoods.htm

I had a cue made from a Falcon/Predator blank that was dubbed "rosewood". Based on this thread and the pictures on the website, I'm guessing it was East Indian.

 

[avscue]

In the cases of cocobolo and african blackwood, I am thinking that cues with these woods would not be described as having "rosewood". The seller or cue maker would actually use the terms "cocobolo" or "african blackwood" don't you think?

Now here's another "vote" for East Indian.

BTW, here is an interesting article from the website I mentioned above...

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_discussion_rosewoods.htm

I had a cue made from a Falcon/Predator blank that was dubbed "rosewood". Based on this thread and the pictures on the website, I'm guessing it was East Indian.

i would agree for the most part but some cocobolo can be dark enough to be confused with something else and i have a piece of east indian in the shop that has a slight look of cocobolo. i was answering in terms of popular dalbergia rather than what would be the generic "rosewood"