round/flat tip how much does it affect spin

digitalcrack

digitalcrack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hello all,
Im usually used to shooting with a flat tip and I've always been able to throw english pretty well. Surely having a 12 mm tip and a skinny shaft helps but I was wondering how flat/round is a tip suppose to be. How much does this part of the shaft affect the spin? Does it matter all that much? Will it help me throw more english?
 
ok, you are wondering whether a more rounded tip will let you apply more english, right? Generally you want a dime or nickel shape to your tip. You should buy shaper in both dime and nickel shapes. Try both and see which you like better. You may find that the dime will give you a little more english, but the nickel may give you more consistency.
 
Thanks for the responces

Yah I have Ultimate Tip tool as well as a willards nickel shaper. I keep it around if people need to use it. I've never really tried to shape my tip. I just figured if I can still do stuff with it thats great. I was just wondering how much of a difference does it actually make. Or if there was a set standard for roundness of a tip.
 
The ideal tip shape for you is not a nickel, dime, or "flat", but some curvature unique to your style. Shape your tip to a nickel radius when it's installed, then leave it alone except for occasional scuffing to help it hold chalk. The tip will assume the proper shape for your playing style over time.

The flatter the tip, the nearer to the tip's edge is the contact point between tip and ball when the tip is offset from center to induce spin. Conversely, the more sharply the tip is curved, the nearer to the center of the tip is the contact point when the tip is offset to induce spin. Visualize two extremes:

- a perfectly flat tip, whose face is a plane perpendicular to the edge of the ferrule. The extreme edge of the tip is what will hit the cue ball if it is hit off-center.

- a tip sharpened like a pencil. The point, which is at the center of the tip, is what will hit the cue ball if it is hit off-center.

Most people aim for a specific amount of spin by moving the tip away from the cue ball's center by a specific distance (usually estimated in "tip widths"). For a given offset distance and stroke speed, a rounded tip will contact the cue ball farther from the ball's center than a flat tip will, because the contact point is nearer to the tip's center and further from the ball's center. So a rounded tip produces more spin than a flat tip, all else being equal.

You produce the spin that you desire for a given shot by adjusting your stroke speed and tip offset. Implicit in these adjustments is the curvature of your tip; you may not know it in radians, but you've built your speed/offset combinations around it. If you suddenly change the tip curvature by re-shaping it to some arbitrary dime or nickel radius, your spin shots will be thrown off. You'll have to change the stroke speed, the tip offset, or both to get the same spin again.

So, shape once and then let your tip mold itself to your shooting style.
 
digitalcrack said:
Yah I have Ultimate Tip tool as well as a willards nickel shaper. I keep it around if people need to use it. I've never really tried to shape my tip. I just figured if I can still do stuff with it thats great. I was just wondering how much of a difference does it actually make. Or if there was a set standard for roundness of a tip.
Click to expand...

The scuttlebutt fountain says that a dime shaped tip offers less deflection......
JoeyA
 
Regardless of the amount of roundness you shape your tip to, a quality, repeatable stroke will make more difference in whether, and/or how much, spin you'll get on the CB. IMO, there is no such thing as too round...however many others prefer a nickle shape or a dime shape. A smaller diameter shaft and tip will generally result in getting spin a little more easily, but the stroke is, by far, the most important factor. jmo

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
a rounded tip

I knew a player some years ago who shaped his tips not to a nickel or dime shape, but to a hemisphere. He would sand the tip from top to ferrule into a perfectly round shape. He said he'd been doing it that way for 40 years. I hit a few balls with it, and while I can't say that I got more spin with his cue than with mine, I will say that it was much harder to miscue with the hemispherical tip. I think he must have replaced them often.
 
longhair said:
I knew a player some years ago who shaped his tips not to a nickel or dime shape, but to a hemisphere. He would sand the tip from top to ferrule into a perfectly round shape. He said he'd been doing it that way for 40 years. I hit a few balls with it, and while I can't say that I got more spin with his cue than with mine, I will say that it was much harder to miscue with the hemispherical tip. I think he must have replaced them often.
Click to expand...


It's funny you say that. When I used to use a nickel shaped tip I found that it deflected much more than it should once I got passed 1.5 tips from center. So it was very hard to shoot accurately with extreme english. I think this is due to the edge of the tip contacting the cueball. I might have to try that hemispherical tip.
 
digitalcrack said:
Hello all,
Im usually used to shooting with a flat tip and I've always been able to throw english pretty well. Surely having a 12 mm tip and a skinny shaft helps but I was wondering how flat/round is a tip suppose to be. How much does this part of the shaft affect the spin? Does it matter all that much? Will it help me throw more english?
Click to expand...

The more curvature your tip has, the larger the contact area between tip and ball when using an off-center hit, whether it be left, right, follow, or draw.

A flat tip will only hit the CB with the "corner" of the tip on an english shot, and so will have a small contact area, and it will be harder to avoid miscues when using english. Also, since only the corner of the tip closest to center ball is actualy making contact, you're not hitting as far out on the ball as it may appear.

A more rounded tip will make contact with the ball all the way from near the middle of the tip, out along the sloping side of the tip to its edge, resulting in more chalk touching the tip and ball at the same time, and a decreased chance of a miscue. Also, since the center of the tip is making contact, and not just the innermost edge, you're hitting the CB a little farther out than you were with a flat tip. At first this may be hard to control, but once you adjust, you'll have an easier time using more english.

So if find yourself hitting out toward the edge of the ball frequently, I'd recommend switching to dime shape, giving yourself time to adjust, and find out if you can juice the ball more easily that way. If you're more of a center-ball player, you'll likely find greater consistency with a nickel or quarter shape, since the flatter tip will mean your effective tip placement won't vary as much due to slight stroke inaccuracies.

-Andrew
 
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Interesting

Thanks for all your input guys. It seems like everything will change my speed control. Right now I dont miscue much with my flat tip except real real extreme english. I tend to use 1 tip right or left top unless I really have to use two tips. I think for now its best I keep my tip flat so I don't have to relearn how hard I have to hit things with what stroke.

Ray
 
Andrew Manning said:
The more curvature your tip has, the larger the contact area between tip and ball when using an off-center hit, whether it be left, right, follow, or draw.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Andrew...this is just not true. The actual contact between the tip and CB is the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB...or about 1/8" x 1/8th". Even when shooting harder, and it LOOKS like a larger chalk mark on the CB, it is just chalk dust bouncing off the tip. The size of the contact area remains nearly the same on all shots.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
It also depends on how soft is your tip.

Hitting with a elkmaster blue tip will allow you to have a greater contact point than a hard tip. That being said, a soft tip also "produce" more spin then you intended sometimes...

-Sensation
 
I've been playing with a dime shaped tip for several years now. I can hit quite low on the cue ball for draw shots.

Recently I was playing with a house stick which had a very flat quarter shaped tip. I could not hit as low on the cue ball when using this tip. When I attempted to hit as low as I do with my regular cue, I would scoop or jump the cue ball.

I was able to draw OK with the quarter shaped tip, I just needed to remember I couldn't shoot as low on the CB as I can with my dime shaped tip.

So I prefer my dime shaped tip.

Also keep in mind that if changing things like tip shape, you may need tio "re-learn" how to shoot some shots. An example of this is when people get a new tip installed and it has a different shape from their old tip. Possibly a different brand/hardness of tip as well. Then their game goes out the window for awhile.

I always keep my tip the same shape. When installing a new tip, I install the same brand/hardness and give it the same shape. It plays the same as my old tip.

So in other words, if you change your tip shape, it may take awhile to adjust to the new shape. Best to try nickel and dime, see what you like best, then stick with that shape forever.

As I recall, it took me quite awhile to adjust to a dime shape, when I had been using a nickel shape before.
 
If the end of the tip is flat, your options for spin would seem to be quite limited. If you hit center ball with a flat tip, you make contact at a specific point on the cue ball. If the tip is flat and 13mm diameter, you could move 6.5 mm in any direction and still be making contact at the same point on the cue ball...just with a different part of the tip. Anything beyond that, and you are only making contact with the edge of the tip.
I agree with Scott in that it is more important to have a good stroke, but having your equipment in good shape sure makes the job easier.
Steve
 
Scott Lee said:
Andrew...this is just not true. The actual contact between the tip and CB is the same size as the red circle on a red circle CB...or about 1/8" x 1/8th". Even when shooting harder, and it LOOKS like a larger chalk mark on the CB, it is just chalk dust bouncing off the tip. The size of the contact area remains nearly the same on all shots.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

It may be 1/8th inch circle for a well-shaped tip on all shots, but take a flat tip and try to hit a side-spin shot. The "corner" of the tip (where the tip's "surface" and "sidewall" meet) will be the only part touching the cue ball. This is a much smaller contact area than a nickel or dime-shaped tip would produce. In terms of percentages, the diference between 1/8th" contact patch and 1/16th" contact patch is night and day, even though they both just look like little tiny areas.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
It may be 1/8th inch circle for a well-shaped tip on all shots, but take a flat tip and try to hit a side-spin shot. The "corner" of the tip (where the tip's "surface" and "sidewall" meet) will be the only part touching the cue ball. This is a much smaller contact area than a nickel or dime-shaped tip would produce. In terms of percentages, the diference between 1/8th" contact patch and 1/16th" contact patch is night and day, even though they both just look like little tiny areas.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
Thank you Andrew!

This explained perfectly what happened to me. I practiced with this tip from the beginning, soft medium, and over a month course I got used to it. But due to shooting 3+ hours a day, the tip got more flattened, as a result, my draw shot sometimes didn’t draw as desired. I then followed online guides to reshape it. It was very hard to get a nickel dome because it was more flat at the center. However, once it is totally domed out, my English and spin were off of almost 1/2 to 1 Diamond along the long rails, depends on the cut and the stances. Now my draw shot could draw very nicely, but it induced too much throw.

I wonder should I adapt to the new shape or should I reflatten the top a bit like what I used to
 
vincett said:
Thank you Andrew!

This explained perfectly what happened to me. I practiced with this tip from the beginning, soft medium, and over a month course I got used to it. But due to shooting 3+ hours a day, the tip got more flattened, as a result, my draw shot sometimes didn’t draw as desired. I then followed online guides to reshape it. It was very hard to get a nickel dome because it was more flat at the center. However, once it is totally domed out, my English and spin were off of almost 1/2 to 1 Diamond along the long rails, depends on the cut and the stances. Now my draw shot could draw very nicely, but it induced too much throw.

I wonder should I adapt to the new shape or should I reflatten the top a bit like what I used to
Click to expand...
Nice 18yr old thread save. What led you to it?
 
vincett said:
Thank you Andrew!

This explained perfectly what happened to me. I practiced with this tip from the beginning, soft medium, and over a month course I got used to it. But due to shooting 3+ hours a day, the tip got more flattened, as a result, my draw shot sometimes didn’t draw as desired. I then followed online guides to reshape it. It was very hard to get a nickel dome because it was more flat at the center. However, once it is totally domed out, my English and spin were off of almost 1/2 to 1 Diamond along the long rails, depends on the cut and the stances. Now my draw shot could draw very nicely, but it induced too much throw.

I wonder should I adapt to the new shape or should I reflatten the top a bit like what I used to
Click to expand...
Realistically the tip will eventually conform to your playing style. I shape it when I install it and usually never again. I might take a bit of sandpaper to rough the fibers at the surface once in a while but mainly just to kind of lift them and get rid of old chalk.

Hopefully this doesn't activate the physics gurus but for a normal tip you should be able to draw with even a quarter radius. I know I can and I'm a nobody. I'd vote just play with it. It will eventually conform to your shooting style.
 
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