Routing question

W

weegee3

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm using a Hightower Deluxe Cue Smith and cutting down to finish size a full length butt.
In order to get a smooth cut it requires me to slow the head stock rpm's to slowest speed which is no problem but I also have to slow the router travel speed to slowest (time consuming} speed in order to get a smooth cut. Any faster than slowest causes a serrated cut like the edge of a steak knife. Is there a faster way to do this. Could the problem be with my router bit? I use the router in a vertical position with a carbide straight edge bit. One inch long by 3/8ths wide. Would a wider bit be an improvement or a bit with more cutting edges. Or should I put the router in a horizontal position and use the end of the bit.
Seems to me that I should get some more travel speed from the router if only on rough cuts without the serration effect.
Your thought would be appreciated.
 
Find the nearest trash can and throw away that straight bit.
Get some slot cutters.
1/8th kerf at the most.
 
What do you consider a long time to cut.
Have you asked Mr. Hightower?
After all, he made your machine.
 
Try a 3/4 inch straight bit. Make sure the carriage travels smoothly before beginning the cut. I like to lube the ways and just slide the carriage back and forth once or twice to make sure there is little friction. I always have the hightower lathe at it's slower speed when tapering,but tend to have the travel set much faster than slowest speed. It is a trial and error process to find the right sweet spot.

Good luck and hope this helps,
Alan

Phelps Custom Cues
 
I agree, get rid of the straight bit and get something with more cutting edges. I use a wing type cutter with 4 cutting edges.
 
Last edited:
The 3 or 6 wing cutters are popular and many people swear by them..... I have tried them and keep going back to a 3/4 straight bit...... it just seems to work best for me.

I spin the work piece at about 300 rpm and set the feed rate for about 8 - 10 inches per minute.............. the gibs must be tight but not binding.... the bed must be well lubed on the top and sides.......... most important.. the cutter must be razor sharp........... play with the feed and speed until you are out of the harmonic that causes things to "sing"


Kim
 
You can get the 6 wing cutter router bit from Hightower. It really makes a huge difference. I've ruined shafts when using straight bit but the 6 wing cutter is more forgiving. On final shaft taper, I use 7 inch per minute feed rate with the cutter running at 15k rpm and it cuts smooth.
 
weegee3 said:
I'm using a Hightower Deluxe Cue Smith and cutting down to finish size a full length butt.
In order to get a smooth cut it requires me to slow the head stock rpm's to slowest speed which is no problem but I also have to slow the router travel speed to slowest (time consuming} speed in order to get a smooth cut. Any faster than slowest causes a serrated cut like the edge of a steak knife. Is there a faster way to do this.[?] Could the problem be with my router bit? I use the router in a vertical position with a carbide straight edge bit. One inch long by 3/8ths wide. Would a wider bit be an improvement or a bit with more cutting edges. Or should I put the router in a horizontal position and use the end of the bit.
Seems to me that I should get some more travel speed from the router if only on rough cuts without the serration effect.
Your thought would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

The very fastest way to get a perfect finish on shafts is to open a box of them you ordered form Samsara, or one of the other expert shaft producers.

You're asking the wrong question when you ask how you can get faster results. Now, if you ask the RIGHT question - "How can I get better results?" - and then pursue THOSE responses, you are far more likely to become a cuemaker of merit. But if faster is your primary concern then you should find someone else, whose main concern is quality, and buy your shafts from them.

Along those lines, in the 80's the late George Fels wrote an article about George Balabushka for Pool and Billiard magazine. In that piece, the most profound statement of all was that the most important aspect of Balabushka's work was his patience. You might want to give that simple concept some thought.

TW
(PS: Don't shoot the messenger.)

 
weegee3 said:
I'm using a Hightower Deluxe Cue Smith and cutting down to finish size a full length butt.
In order to get a smooth cut it requires me to slow the head stock rpm's to slowest speed which is no problem but I also have to slow the router travel speed to slowest (time consuming} speed in order to get a smooth cut. Any faster than slowest causes a serrated cut like the edge of a steak knife. Is there a faster way to do this. Could the problem be with my router bit? I use the router in a vertical position with a carbide straight edge bit. One inch long by 3/8ths wide. Would a wider bit be an improvement or a bit with more cutting edges. Or should I put the router in a horizontal position and use the end of the bit.
Seems to me that I should get some more travel speed from the router if only on rough cuts without the serration effect.
Your thought would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Judging by the work of those who posted here, there's some good advice to be had. I think Thomas Wayne hit the nail on the head here. It's one thing if you are in production and have shareholders and employees. Their machines are probably faster - but they can do 5, 6, or more turnings at one time with a multi-head CNC router.

That said, the larger the diameter of your tool, the shallower the "scallops" you leave on the surface are. The slower you're federate, the narrower the scallops become.

Now it may seem slow to go 10ipm at 300rev/min. But if you consider the amount of "surface" inches covered, it's quite a bit (no pun intended.) So let's say you're turning a straight 1-1/4" dowel. At the above lathe speed and federate, that comes out to about 1178ipm (pi * 1.25 * 300). The formula for federate is:

federate = chipload x (number of flutes) x (spindle speed)

Working backwards, with a 2-flute bit, that gives you a chipload of about .039". For a 3/4" 2-flute bit, that may be a bit on the high side; .015"-.025" would be ideal for hardwoods. Thus I'd conclude a 3/4", 3-flute bit would give better results (.026"), and a 4-flute even better (.020").

Bits are important as well. If you buy the hardware store straight bits, they are chip-breaking and chipload-limited (V-shaped gullies). This is a safety concern for hand-operated routers. Bits for CNC or automated cutting have larger flutes which evacuate chips faster and can take larger cuts while still cutting clean. Carbide endmills for aluminum cut hardwood very cleanly because they have very sharp rakes, like wood bits, but o-shaped gullies, which allow the chips to curl rather than break into little pieces (less heat on the tool=sharper longer). I would also predict because of the spiral flutes, the shearing action would give more cutting edge engagement, which should lead to quitter, smoother operation. Also with the router in front of the blank, I'd go from joint to butt, so that the endmill is always climb-cutting, which would eliminate any chance of tear-out. This is, provided your router spindle can take a 1/2" or 3/4" collet.

This all works somewhat proportionately, so if you increase or decrease one parameter, you must increase or decrease another.
 
louieatienza said:
Judging by the work of those who posted here, there's some good advice to be had. I think Thomas Wayne hit the nail on the head here. It's one thing if you are in production and have shareholders and employees. Their machines are probably faster - but they can do 5, 6, or more turnings at one time with a multi-head CNC router.

That said, the larger the diameter of your tool, the shallower the "scallops" you leave on the surface are. The slower you're federate, the narrower the scallops become.

Now it may seem slow to go 10ipm at 300rev/min. But if you consider the amount of "surface" inches covered, it's quite a bit (no pun intended.) So let's say you're turning a straight 1-1/4" dowel. At the above lathe speed and federate, that comes out to about 1178ipm (pi * 1.25 * 300). The formula for federate is:

federate = chipload x (number of flutes) x (spindle speed)

Working backwards, with a 2-flute bit, that gives you a chipload of about .039". For a 3/4" 2-flute bit, that may be a bit on the high side; .015"-.025" would be ideal for hardwoods. Thus I'd conclude a 3/4", 3-flute bit would give better results (.026"), and a 4-flute even better (.020").

Bits are important as well. If you buy the hardware store straight bits, they are chip-breaking and chipload-limited (V-shaped gullies). This is a safety concern for hand-operated routers. Bits for CNC or automated cutting have larger flutes which evacuate chips faster and can take larger cuts while still cutting clean. Carbide endmills for aluminum cut hardwood very cleanly because they have very sharp rakes, like wood bits, but o-shaped gullies, which allow the chips to curl rather than break into little pieces (less heat on the tool=sharper longer). I would also predict because of the spiral flutes, the shearing action would give more cutting edge engagement, which should lead to quitter, smoother operation. Also with the router in front of the blank, I'd go from joint to butt, so that the endmill is always climb-cutting, which would eliminate any chance of tear-out. This is, provided your router spindle can take a 1/2" or 3/4" collet.

This all works somewhat proportionately, so if you increase or decrease one parameter, you must increase or decrease another.
Click to expand...

I agree completely with regards to general machining...but cue building has a few more variables that almost no other trade has.

1. Unsupported spinning flexible workpiece
2. Cheap / non concentric cutting tools
3. Cheap spindles with runout and vibration
4. And apparently carriage vibration

I here a lot of talk about slot cutters. I'm betting that at least half the people running 3-4 flute slot cutters that take an .005 or less finish cut have engagement on 1 of the 3-4 flutes....and depending on how true the movement is on an aluminum dovetail bed then engagement could change throughout the 30" of travel
 
LGSM3 said:
I agree completely with regards to general machining...but cue building has a few more variables that almost no other trade has.

1. Unsupported spinning flexible workpiece
2. Cheap / non concentric cutting tools
3. Cheap spindles with runout and vibration
4. And apparently carriage vibration

I here a lot of talk about slot cutters. I'm betting that at least half the people running 3-4 flute slot cutters that take an .005 or less finish cut have engagement on 1 of the 3-4 flutes....and depending on how true the movement is on an aluminum dovetail bed then engagement could change throughout the 30" of travel
Click to expand...

Well, with the diameter of the slot cutters, to have more than 1 edge engagement would require a large amount of stock to remove, or maybe at least 8-10 cutting edges, both which I don't think is the case here. Onsrud makes a 3-flute lo-angle spiral bit for woods 60-241 for 1/4", and 60-249 for 1/2", that might work well for this.

I've never measured the concentricity of a garden-variety wing cutter. Though yes, a cheap router spindle's run-out could be a factor. I actually used to bring 1/4" ground drill rod and a test indicator to the store to check the spindles/collets on the routers before I bought them. Then I'd throw out said collets and buy PreciseBits collet set and collet nut from Ron Reed. The improvement in run-out is pretty amazing, and the ER style collets I feel hold tools much better.

I do see quite a few cue lathe designs have ether unsupported linear rod or a router mount that could be beefed up, or both. In such cases, it would help to
  • run at a lower feedrate (but not so low as to glaze the surface)
  • add more support to the router mount
  • add a balast to the router mount, as increasing weight may help reduce vibration
  • try to adjust the router so the collet is as close to the work as possible while still having enough flute exposure

I think I saw one design that was belt-driven, and it is possible belt flex could cause chatter, just like backlash on a screw. The belt may need to be tightened - within reason.
 
At minimum use the 3/4" straight bit. Better yet use the 1.25" six wing cutter. DO not go to the two plus inch diameter cutters as they cause too much vibration on smaller machines.
 
Thanks to all who tool the time to respond. A wealth if information.
Constantly amazed at how helpful cue builders and so willing to share it with the hackers like myself. I bow to your generosity.
 
Well said!!!

Thomas Wayne said:


The very fastest way to get a perfect finish on shafts is to open a box of them you ordered form Samsara, or one of the other expert shaft producers.

You're asking the wrong question when you ask how you can get faster results. Now, if you ask the RIGHT question - "How can I get better results?" - and then pursue THOSE responses, you are far more likely to become a cuemaker of merit. But if faster is your primary concern then you should find someone else, whose main concern is quality, and buy your shafts from them.

Along those lines, in the 80's the late George Fels wrote an article about George Balabushka for Pool and Billiard magazine. In that piece, the most profound statement of all was that the most important aspect of Balabushka's work was his patience. You might want to give that simple concept some thought.

TW
(PS: Don't shoot the messenger.)

Click to expand...

Well said TW!!!! Speed Kills
 
Originally Posted by Thomas Wayne View Post


The very fastest way to get a perfect finish on shafts is to open a box of them you ordered form Samsara, or one of the other expert shaft producers.

You're asking the wrong question when you ask how you can get faster results. Now, if you ask the RIGHT question - "How can I get better results?" - and then pursue THOSE responses, you are far more likely to become a cuemaker of merit. But if faster is your primary concern then you should find someone else, whose main concern is quality, and buy your shafts from them.

Along those lines, in the 80's the late George Fels wrote an article about George Balabushka for Pool and Billiard magazine. In that piece, the most profound statement of all was that the most important aspect of Balabushka's work was his patience. You might want to give that simple concept some thought.

TW
(PS: Don't shoot the messenger.)

Well said TW!!!! Speed Kills



I have tablesaw machine and take my time never ever get in a hurry works for me.
Dan Axe
 
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