Rubber on GC1 coming loose - Fix??

sellingboe

Active member
I have a GC1 with original Monarch Super Speed. The action on them is and has been good. However just the other day the glue gave way on about 1 1/4" mid-rail on one of the rails. Still plays ok, but I'm worried about it progressing. Can this be re-glued/fixed?
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
as rubber ages, the rubber gets harder, the durometer increases over time. when you do put new cushions on that arent so old you'll notice a huge difference.. if you want to fix it for now, yes unstaple the cloth , provided someone hasn't spray glued it on,, then you can remove the rubber, clean it and the rail and re-glue it.. loose rubber will deaden the rail so a ball traveling at a fairly slow speed will hit it and not rebound very well at all.

this website states the "shelf life" for ( natural) rubber to be 3-5 years,

Your table is proof they can function longer.. Its just been steadily deteriorating at an unnoticeable rate. covering the table might help preserve it as oxygen and ozone and sunlight help it deteriorate.. putting the pool table in a cool dark place is not practical.

I've seen nice looking , good tread but old tires separate all around the side wall and almost come right off the rim , twice! because I pushed their limits, That's dangerous.. imagine if you had a set of tires as old as your table,, would you use them, probably not.

some plasticized rubber like compounds , they are actually sold as "rubber" but real authentic Brunswick rubber wasn't a plastic material.. If you are old enough you might remember tires used in WW2 and how old tires like that crumbled over time. the formulations for tires changed over time.

the plastic like compounds, lie that of an Oring are not porous when you feel them they arent; grippy like real rubber, I'm sure you've seen what happens if a rubber band is left in a drawer, it turns to hardened rubbish. its all cracked and lost it's flexiblity and strength.. what you want is real rubber not a synthetic compound. it has better bounce characteristics. Id be wary of offshore stuff.. I saw a lot of things advertised as "rubber" that were in fact "synthetic rubber"

I restored a 1961 brunswick , a small table, the rubber then was small , unobtainable too.. so I modified the rails( trimmed about 10 mm off ) to take 3/4" rubber,, You would not believe the difference. now it plays like a new table.

if you glue rubbber back , watch the contact height , it should be around 63 or 64% of the ball size, too high it drives the ball downward, makes gutters, won't bounce so well, too high and balls start hopping off the table.

If that were my table I'd just replace it myself and put new rubber, but that's a slippery slope, how is the cloth?

at the ends of each run of rail, there should be a "facing" made of about 1/8" rubber sheet

you are probably in the US and Im in canada but anyway here is a page that shows the rubber. Id spring for the brunswick superspeed myself , some others may have recommendations.. I bought the thinner rubber from a pump supplier that gets it fresh in 3 foot wide rolls..

I'd carefully glue on the new rubber and then put the cheeks on , I use a grinder to trim it, I have a 220V angle grinder running on 110 so it goes a lot slower speed, with a grindstone that rubber turns to dust.. you cna;t sand it.. nt really.. you can with a small belt sander.. It easy to mess up and go too deep so I'd go carefully, I use an angle grinder lots in my job so I can use one aquite accurately.. a dremil may do, you can use a very sharp knife but it's hard to take a second cut and the rubber tends to spring away causing inaccuracy, then a very thin accurate trim is hard to accomplish.. some use a knife and you can often see how the cheek and rail dotn meet nicely, you need to trim the cheek to the rail profile, I'd leave it 1 1/6 long and fine trim carefully with a grinder.

if you want o change pocket size, heres the time you can use thicker rubber , some buy the cheeks and double them..

id also note that near the pockets, the ball can hit the end of the rail rubber and if it has "top" then the ball can launch, Id not how yours are before removing anything... you may find there is a bit there you think is vertical but it may have an abngle.. so what I;d do is make thick card- stock templates so you dont loose any dimensional proportion unless you decide to make changes.

when balls enter pockets the cheeks may not be parallel but may be a but "splayed" that influences how the balls act when you have a near miss,, if you change that you may also change how the pockets react and if the ball is thrown out or accepted more easily.. so Id make cardboard templates of pockets and any changes made should be because you choose to nt because you can;t remember how they were.. other than that there is olots on google, videos showing how to recover rails and there are soem tricks to stretch the fabric.. some cloth has more stretch and give than others.. I think if you go into the faster modern cloth that may be a factor to consider..

Im pretty good at making things and making things fit so I did my own, some should hire it out, depends how comfortable you are. if you dont damage the rail you are only gambling some materials so I'd encourage you to go for it if you feel on doing that sort off thing just wath every video you can find first and take an average of different points and ideas.. If you like you can send the rials out and have it done for you. I didnt find anything hard to do myself I just did research before I dove in..

heres a website just for reference, make sure you get the right profile if you buy new rubber and you can research suppliers.

 

sellingboe

Active member
I have a GC1 with original Monarch Super Speed. The action on them is and has been good. However just the other day the glue gave way on about 1 1/4" mid-rail on one of the rails. Still plays ok, but I'm worried about it progressing. Can this be re-g

as rubber ages, the rubber gets harder, the durometer increases over time. when you do put new cushions on that arent so old you'll notice a huge difference.. if you want to fix it for now, yes unstaple the cloth , provided someone hasn't spray glued it on,, then you can remove the rubber, clean it and the rail and re-glue it.. loose rubber will deaden the rail so a ball traveling at a fairly slow speed will hit it and not rebound very well at all.

this website states the "shelf life" for ( natural) rubber to be 3-5 years,

Your table is proof they can function longer.. Its just been steadily deteriorating at an unnoticeable rate. covering the table might help preserve it as oxygen and ozone and sunlight help it deteriorate.. putting the pool table in a cool dark place is not practical.

I've seen nice looking , good tread but old tires separate all around the side wall and almost come right off the rim , twice! because I pushed their limits, That's dangerous.. imagine if you had a set of tires as old as your table,, would you use them, probably not.

some plasticized rubber like compounds , they are actually sold as "rubber" but real authentic Brunswick rubber wasn't a plastic material.. If you are old enough you might remember tires used in WW2 and how old tires like that crumbled over time. the formulations for tires changed over time.

the plastic like compounds, lie that of an Oring are not porous when you feel them they arent; grippy like real rubber, I'm sure you've seen what happens if a rubber band is left in a drawer, it turns to hardened rubbish. its all cracked and lost it's flexiblity and strength.. what you want is real rubber not a synthetic compound. it has better bounce characteristics. Id be wary of offshore stuff.. I saw a lot of things advertised as "rubber" that were in fact "synthetic rubber"

I restored a 1961 brunswick , a small table, the rubber then was small , unobtainable too.. so I modified the rails( trimmed about 10 mm off ) to take 3/4" rubber,, You would not believe the difference. now it plays like a new table.

if you glue rubbber back , watch the contact height , it should be around 63 or 64% of the ball size, too high it drives the ball downward, makes gutters, won't bounce so well, too high and balls start hopping off the table.

If that were my table I'd just replace it myself and put new rubber, but that's a slippery slope, how is the cloth?

at the ends of each run of rail, there should be a "facing" made of about 1/8" rubber sheet

you are probably in the US and Im in canada but anyway here is a page that shows the rubber. Id spring for the brunswick superspeed myself , some others may have recommendations.. I bought the thinner rubber from a pump supplier that gets it fresh in 3 foot wide rolls..

I'd carefully glue on the new rubber and then put the cheeks on , I use a grinder to trim it, I have a 220V angle grinder running on 110 so it goes a lot slower speed, with a grindstone that rubber turns to dust.. you cna;t sand it.. nt really.. you can with a small belt sander.. It easy to mess up and go too deep so I'd go carefully, I use an angle grinder lots in my job so I can use one aquite accurately.. a dremil may do, you can use a very sharp knife but it's hard to take a second cut and the rubber tends to spring away causing inaccuracy, then a very thin accurate trim is hard to accomplish.. some use a knife and you can often see how the cheek and rail dotn meet nicely, you need to trim the cheek to the rail profile, I'd leave it 1 1/6 long and fine trim carefully with a grinder.

if you want o change pocket size, heres the time you can use thicker rubber , some buy the cheeks and double them..

id also note that near the pockets, the ball can hit the end of the rail rubber and if it has "top" then the ball can launch, Id not how yours are before removing anything... you may find there is a bit there you think is vertical but it may have an abngle.. so what I;d do is make thick card- stock templates so you dont loose any dimensional proportion unless you decide to make changes.

when balls enter pockets the cheeks may not be parallel but may be a but "splayed" that influences how the balls act when you have a near miss,, if you change that you may also change how the pockets react and if the ball is thrown out or accepted more easily.. so Id make cardboard templates of pockets and any changes made should be because you choose to nt because you can;t remember how they were.. other than that there is olots on google, videos showing how to recover rails and there are soem tricks to stretch the fabric.. some cloth has more stretch and give than others.. I think if you go into the faster modern cloth that may be a factor to consider..

Im pretty good at making things and making things fit so I did my own, some should hire it out, depends how comfortable you are. if you dont damage the rail you are only gambling some materials so I'd encourage you to go for it if you feel on doing that sort off thing just wath every video you can find first and take an average of different points and ideas.. If you like you can send the rials out and have it done for you. I didnt find anything hard to do myself I just did research before I dove in..

heres a website just for reference, make sure you get the right profile if you buy new rubber and you can research suppliers.

Thanks for the response. I'm not doing anything myself. I restored the table in 2021 but did not put it back together and set it up. I was looking for a quick and easy short-term solution. Longer term I want to replace the rubber and narrow the pockets, but because it's a GC1 that requires changing the bevel for the newer K55 replacements. It's not just a swap out on GC1, GC2 and early GC3s. And, I'm in Minnesota and as far as I know there are no mechanics skilled at this in the Twin Cities. It's ok for now as it's mostly just me playing on it, but it does bug me. I guess it was bound to happen with 60 +/- year old rubber.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
I think if you want to replace the rubber you might choose to ship the rails out to someone you feel you'd like to deal with.
.
You'd still need someone to put them back if you are not into working on the table yourself.. that seems to be what you want to do so that's your plan. if you pay for a mechanic to fly in and stay in a hotel then he will find someone local with a tablesaw, or pack a track saw or something with him..

I did similar with my little table, because the old style was obsolete. That was actually a lot faster than worrying about scraping glue off and then you have something flat and clean to glue the new rubber to.

I'd just make sure you are using the correct angle otherwise it's just one straight bevel cut on each rail , set the angle on the saw, run a test, check it, set the fence and fire them all through.. you are looking at 5 mins setup time and each cut takes 30 seconds..

the thing here is that hte cut is critical, you dont want any wave or irrregularity in the cut, the outide of the rail will be towards the fence and it has to be flat, no bumps.. because that will be the side guiding the cut.

if not, it is possible to clamp the rail to a straightedge and use the straitedge as your guide to put to the fence. this is very critical so I'd check that the outside of the rail actually is true. you don't want a "bananna" shaped cut.

the rubber suppliers will know GC's and recommend the right angle, I don't see that being a complex issue.

Any journeyman joiner (cabinetmaker) has the skills for that, they won't understand pool tables.
They can cut your rails accurately, heck they can build you a whole table ( the wood parts) to high accuracy to your own custom plan if you want..

a cabinetmaker, if they are worth their salt, has experience fitting to tight tolerances.. I mean a guy that actually builds cabinets, not a guy ( I shoud say person) that asssembles prefab boxes.

because the cut is critical and you dont want it wandering about I'd just use a good quality tablesaw, and not some piece of junk contractor saw, cabinet saws are not portable they weigh a thousand pounds, or something significant..
Contractor saws are portable ones, usually with a shorter fence and not as accurate.. stuff youd find in home depot is a contractor saw.. people refer to them both as "tablesaws"

I'd favor that whoever trims your rails is not using some cheap innacurate contractor type saw, but that said if he's a good tradesman he should still be able to make accurate work, a poor tradesman blames his tools.

there definitely are some highly skilled experienced pool table mechanics, that said, this isn't even a trade, there is no qualification, no apprentiship, no exam. so you get who you hire and almost anyone with some experience can claim to be one.

a joiner or cabinetmaker or an electrician, those are trades. They have tickets they need to put a defined amount of time in and pass tests to be qualified. when they get their ticket they are "tradesmen" . not before.

yes there are many "carpenters" who arent; tradesmen, they are still professional woodworkers because thats how they bring home the bacon. If you hired one , as a "trades person" you would have every right to ask for their ticket.

. both are "professions" because a professional is someone who does things to make money. "professional " does not mean they have high quality standards. So current references mean a lot.

Im not stating skills and experience are not important, they definitely are, just watch who you hire because if the person you hire does a crappy job, you don't have much of a leg to stand on legally ..

the analogy I like to make is that if you hired a painter to paint something and didnt like the paintjob he did then went to court, the judge would probably say , did he paint it? yes , so pay the man , case closed.

It would then be up to you to prove that his standards were excessiely low and convince the judge otherwise.. and thats hard to do. That's a very good scenario to avoid.

one reason I'd do it myself and I'd be in complete control of the quality level and I'd put whatever time it took to satisfy myself to my own desired quality level. Thats how I am, and you do see things from a different perspective and that is completely fine.

I dont believe pool table mechanic is actually a reistered trade, that does not mean there are no experienced workers, it means you will never find anyone with a "pool table mechanic " trades ticket. this is because the numbers are too low for qualification or testing , or trades tickets to even exist..

If someone says "pool table mechanic" that is their "trade" you can say can I please see your trades ticket to prove your qualification, they will hate you after that.. probably not a great way to get them on your side but it was just a way to make my point..
 
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realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I think if you want to replace the rubber you might choose to ship the rails out to someone you feel you'd like to deal with.
.
You'd still need someone to put them back if you are not into working on the table yourself.. that seems to be what you want to do so that's your plan. if you pay for a mechanic to fly in and stay in a hotel then he will find someone local with a tablesaw, or pack a track saw or something with him..

I did similar with my little table, because the old style was obsolete. That was actually a lot faster than worrying about scraping glue off and then you have something flat and clean to glue the new rubber to.

I'd just make sure you are using the correct angle otherwise it's just one straight bevel cut on each rail , set the angle on the saw, run a test, check it, set the fence and fire them all through.. you are looking at 5 mins setup time and each cut takes 30 seconds..

the thing here is that hte cut is critical, you dont want any wave or irrregularity in the cut, the outide of the rail will be towards the fence and it has to be flat, no bumps.. because that will be the side guiding the cut.

if not, it is possible to clamp the rail to a straightedge and use the straitedge as your guide to put to the fence. this is very critical so I'd check that the outside of the rail actually is true. you don't want a "bananna" shaped cut.

the rubber suppliers will know GC's and recommend the right angle, I don't see that being a complex issue.

Any journeyman joiner (cabinetmaker) has the skills for that, they won't understand pool tables.
They can cut your rails accurately, heck they can build you a whole table ( the wood parts) to high accuracy to your own custom plan if you want..

a cabinetmaker, if they are worth their salt, has experience fitting to tight tolerances.. I mean a guy that actually builds cabinets, not a guy ( I shoud say person) that asssembles prefab boxes.

because the cut is critical and you dont want it wandering about I'd just use a good quality tablesaw, and not some piece of junk contractor saw, cabinet saws are not portable they weigh a thousand pounds, or something significant..
Contractor saws are portable ones, usually with a shorter fence and not as accurate.. stuff youd find in home depot is a contractor saw.. people refer to them both as "tablesaws"

I'd favor that whoever trims your rails is not using some cheap innacurate contractor type saw, but that said if he's a good tradesman he should still be able to make accurate work, a poor tradesman blames his tools.

there definitely are some highly skilled experienced pool table mechanics, that said, this isn't even a trade, there is no qualification, no apprentiship, no exam. so you get who you hire and almost anyone with some experience can claim to be one.

a joiner or cabinetmaker or an electrician, those are trades. They have tickets they need to put a defined amount of time in and pass tests to be qualified. when they get their ticket they are "tradesmen" . not before.

yes there are many "carpenters" who arent; tradesmen, they are still professional woodworkers because thats how they bring home the bacon. If you hired one , as a "trades person" you would have every right to ask for their ticket.

. both are "professions" because a professional is someone who does things to make money. "professional " does not mean they have high quality standards. So current references mean a lot.

Im not stating skills and experience are not important, they definitely are, just watch who you hire because if the person you hire does a crappy job, you don't have much of a leg to stand on legally ..

the analogy I like to make is that if you hired a painter to paint something and didnt like the paintjob he did then went to court, the judge would probably say , did he paint it? yes , so pay the man , case closed.

It would then be up to you to prove that his standards were excessiely low and convince the judge otherwise.. and thats hard to do. That's a very good scenario to avoid.

one reason I'd do it myself and I'd be in complete control of the quality level and I'd put whatever time it took to satisfy myself to my own desired quality level. Thats how I am, and you do see things from a different perspective and that is completely fine.

I dont believe pool table mechanic is actually a reistered trade, that does not mean there are no experienced workers, it means you will never find anyone with a "pool table mechanic " trades ticket. this is because the numbers are too low for qualification or testing , or trades tickets to even exist..

If someone says "pool table mechanic" that is their "trade" you can say can I please see your trades ticket to prove your qualification, they will hate you after that.. probably not a great way to get them on your side but it was just a way to make my point..
You are NOT a table mechanic, and barley qualify to even know what you're talking about. First off, the cushions used on GC1's is Monarch Superspeeds, not some cheaper 4th tier down pool table. Second, seldom are the cushions on GC1's ever replaced because of their age, more often than not, they're replaced because the customer wants the rails extended and that requires new cushions. As far as sanding the facings, you can throw out all the BS you mentioned for doing that, and just simply buy a Makita 9031 belt sander, if you work on pool tables, that is a MUST HAVE tool! And what knowledge do you actually bring to the "talk to a mechanic forum"?
 
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rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are NOT a table mechanic, and barley qualify to even know what you're talking about. First off, the cushions used on GC1's is Monarch Superspeeds, not some cheaper 4th tier down pool table. Second, seldom are the cushions on GC1's ever replaced because of their age, more often than not, they're replaced because the customer wants the rails extended and that requires new cushions. As far as sanding the facings, you can throw out all the BS you mentioned for doing that, and just simply buy a Makita 9031 belt sander, if you work on pool tables, that is a MUST HAVE tool! And what knowledge do you actually bring to the "talk to a mechanic forum"?
I don't even bother reading his/her novels. I just scroll right past them. Worthless drivel.
 

snookered_again

Well-known member
You are NOT a table mechanic, and barley qualify to even know what you're talking about. First off, the cushions used on GC1's is Monarch Superspeeds, not some cheaper 4th tier down pool table. Second, seldom are the cushions on GC1's ever replaced because of their age, more often than not, they're replaced because the customer wants the rails extended and that requires new cushions. As far as sanding the facings, you can throw out all the BS you mentioned for doing that, and just simply buy a Makita 9031 belt sander, if you work on pool tables, that is a MUST HAVE tool! And what knowledge do you actually bring to the "talk to a mechanic forum"?
you are a very insulting and rude man. screw off jerk.
 

sellingboe

Active member
You are NOT a table mechanic, and barley qualify to even know what you're talking about. First off, the cushions used on GC1's is Monarch Superspeeds, not some cheaper 4th tier down pool table. Second, seldom are the cushions on GC1's ever replaced because of their age, more often than not, they're replaced because the customer wants the rails extended and that requires new cushions. As far as sanding the facings, you can throw out all the BS you mentioned for doing that, and just simply buy a Makita 9031 belt sander, if you work on pool tables, that is a MUST HAVE tool! And what knowledge do you actually bring to the "talk to a mechanic forum"?
So Glen, now that I've got your attention (ok, the other guy got it), there's one small spot where the glue came loose on the long rail. It's about 1.25" in width. I can play with it like this for awhile before I decide to go all out and have the rails redone for new rubber and pockets shrunk a bit. What would you recommend? Thanks.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
So Glen, now that I've got your attention (ok, the other guy got it), there's one small spot where the glue came loose on the long rail. It's about 1.25" in width. I can play with it like this for awhile before I decide to go all out and have the rails redone for new rubber and pockets shrunk a bit. What would you recommend? Thanks.
If you check, I bet it's right in front of where a rail bolt lines up under the slate. Reason I say that is because all GC rails with the exception of the GC1 with the figure 8 nut plates mounted in the bottom of the rails, so they don't apply. So, all GC's have a capture nut embedded into a cavity cut into the rail from behind the cushions to make room for the capture nut. The cavity opening is about 1 1/4" wide, and about 3/8" high. The problem with that cavity m, is that the bottom of the cushions are basically right in line with it, to the point that the cushion only has about a 1/8" thickness if wood bonding the cushion in place in front of the cavity, so that's again, about 1 1/4" inch wide by about an 1/8" in of cushion being glued. If that spot get pulled loose, then right there is where the cushions come unglued. Foot rail cushions get pulled loose at both outside Diamonds if the table has a ball return, because people squat down picking the balls out of the ball box, then grab the cushion to pull themselves back up. But don't worry, it won't bother anything other than you knowing it. The cushions won't keep pulling loose. I wouldn't waste my time fixing it until you get the rails taken off to have them rebuilt.
 

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
I have a GC1 with original Monarch Super Speed. The action on them is and has been good. However just the other day the glue gave way on about 1 1/4" mid-rail on one of the rails. Still plays ok, but I'm worried about it progressing. Can this be re-glued/fixed?
See, just by your description alone, tells me your rails don't have the fig 8 nut plates, but rather the floating capture nuts, with the cut out cavities to insert them😅
 

TrxR

Well-known member
See, just by your description alone, tells me your rails don't have the fig 8 nut plates, but rather the floating capture nuts, with the cut out cavities to insert them😅
Is it necessary to have the subrails modified to use newer K55 cushions on a GC1 or 2?
 

TrxR

Well-known member
Yes, but not just for the reasons you might think. Give me a call, 702-927-5689 I'm tired of texting all the time. Hard to hold a fishing pole and text😅🤣😂
Thanks for the offer . I'm looking at a GC1 possibly. If I do get it I will give you a call . I had a guy on FB that it wasn't needed as it was only a 1/64" difference.

Good luck with the fishing
 

sellingboe

Active member
If you check, I bet it's right in front of where a rail bolt lines up under the slate. Reason I say that is because all GC rails with the exception of the GC1 with the figure 8 nut plates mounted in the bottom of the rails, so they don't apply. So, all GC's have a capture nut embedded into a cavity cut into the rail from behind the cushions to make room for the capture nut. The cavity opening is about 1 1/4" wide, and about 3/8" high. The problem with that cavity m, is that the bottom of the cushions are basically right in line with it, to the point that the cushion only has about a 1/8" thickness if wood bonding the cushion in place in front of the cavity, so that's again, about 1 1/4" inch wide by about an 1/8" in of cushion being glued. If that spot get pulled loose, then right there is where the cushions come unglued. Foot rail cushions get pulled loose at both outside Diamonds if the table has a ball return, because people squat down picking the balls out of the ball box, then grab the cushion to pull themselves back up. But don't worry, it won't bother anything other than you knowing it. The cushions won't keep pulling loose. I wouldn't waste my time fixing it until you get the rails taken off to have them rebuilt.
Thanks Glen, I appreciate the response!
 
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