Rule question

K

kaznj

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A player is breaking to start the match. The cue ball hits the rack. Two balls hit a rail. The cue ball goes directly into the pocket. Is this a 2 point foul, or a one point foul?
If the cue ball goes into the pocket does this count as hitting a rail and therefore a one point foul?
 
kaznj said:
A player is breaking to start the match. The cue ball hits the rack. Two balls hit a rail. The cue ball goes directly into the pocket. Is this a 2 point foul, or a one point foul?
If the cue ball goes into the pocket does this count as hitting a rail and therefore a one point foul?
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The cue ball going into a pocket (or for that matter, hitting the back of the pocket and coming back onto the table) counts as the cue ball having hit a rail.
 
kaznj said:
A player is breaking to start the match. The cue ball hits the rack. Two balls hit a rail. The cue ball goes directly into the pocket. Is this a 2 point foul, or a one point foul?
If the cue ball goes into the pocket does this count as hitting a rail and therefore a one point foul?
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This is a 1 point penalty. The shooter is charged with a foul. The incoming player does not have the option for a rerack and must shoot from behind the head-string. I hope this answers everything.
 
Just to add, a breaking violation happens when two balls and the cue-ball do not contact a rail. This isn't a foul but a two-point deduction and the incoming player has the option to play the table as-is or request a rebreak. The 15-point penalty for 3 consecutive fouls does not apply to breaking violations.
 
Good Question Kaz!

kaznj said:
A player is breaking to start the match. The cue ball hits the rack. Two balls hit a rail. The cue ball goes directly into the pocket. Is this a 2 point foul, or a one point foul?
If the cue ball goes into the pocket does this count as hitting a rail and therefore a one point foul?
Click to expand...

Good Question Kaz!

I have had this discussion several times with many "old-school" players and even officials as well as many "newbies" in the game and there is still a great discrepancy as to whether it is a 1 point or 2 point violation. Perhaps it is simply in the interpretation of the following WPA rules;

4.3 Opening Break Shot
The following rules apply to the opening break shot:
(a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string.
(b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail or the shot is a breaking foul. (See 8.4 Driven to a Rail.) This is penalized by subtracting two points from the breaker’s score. (See 4.10 Breaking Foul.) The non-breaking player may accept the balls in position or may require the breaker to play another opening break shot, until he satisfies the requirements for an opening break or the non-shooting player accepts the table in position. (See 4.11 Serious Fouls)

8.4 Driven to a Rail (From definitions used in rules)
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also Regulation 27, Calling Frozen Balls.

4.10 Breaking Foul
A breaking foul is penalized by the loss of two points as mentioned under 4.3 Opening Break Shot, as well as a possible re-break. If both a standard foul and a breaking foul happen on one shot, it is considered a breaking foul.
 
Sandman said:
Good Question Kaz!

I have had this discussion several times with many "old-school" players and even officials as well as many "newbies" in the game and there is still a great discrepancy as to whether it is a 1 point or 2 point violation. Perhaps it is simply in the interpretation of the following WPA rules;

4.3 Opening Break Shot
The following rules apply to the opening break shot:
(a) The cue ball begins in hand behind the head string.
(b) If no called ball is pocketed, the cue ball and two object balls must each be driven to a rail or the shot is a breaking foul. (See 8.4 Driven to a Rail.) This is penalized by subtracting two points from the breaker’s score. (See 4.10 Breaking Foul.) The non-breaking player may accept the balls in position or may require the breaker to play another opening break shot, until he satisfies the requirements for an opening break or the non-shooting player accepts the table in position. (See 4.11 Serious Fouls)

8.4 Driven to a Rail (From definitions used in rules)
A ball is said to be driven to a rail if it is not touching that rail and then touches that rail. A ball touching at the start of a shot (said to be “frozen” to the rail) is not considered driven to that rail unless it leaves the rail and returns. A ball that is pocketed or driven off the table is also considered to have been driven to a rail. A ball is assumed not to be frozen to any rail unless it is declared frozen by the referee, the shooter, or the opponent. See also Regulation 27, Calling Frozen Balls.

4.10 Breaking Foul
A breaking foul is penalized by the loss of two points as mentioned under 4.3 Opening Break Shot, as well as a possible re-break. If both a standard foul and a breaking foul happen on one shot, it is considered a breaking foul.
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Personally, I think there's little to interpret. The "Breaking foul" is a very specific situation. If there's no breaking foul and you pocket the cue-ball, it's a standard foul. Basically, you gotta drive two object balls and the cue ball to a rail or you may have to break again. That's it. Once this is done, the game is underway.
 
Sandman said:
Good Question Kaz!

I have had this discussion several times with many "old-school" players and even officials as well as many "newbies" in the game and there is still a great discrepancy as to whether it is a 1 point or 2 point violation. Perhaps it is simply in the interpretation of the following WPA rules; ...
Click to expand...
I think it is pretty clear that if the cue ball goes into a pocket after contacting an object ball, it has been "driven to a rail" according to 8.4. Do you feel that is not clear? Is there some way to make it clearer?
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Personally, I think there's little to interpret. The "Breaking foul" is a very specific situation. If there's no breaking foul and you pocket the cue-ball, it's a standard foul. Basically, you gotta drive two object balls and the cue ball to a rail or you may have to break again. That's it. Once this is done, the game is underway.
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I agree. I'm saying people have argued differently. Hopefully reading the official WPA rules will clarify it for all. Once all the rules are read thoroughly, it is clear.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think it is pretty clear that if the cue ball goes into a pocket after contacting an object ball, it has been "driven to a rail" according to 8.4. Do you feel that is not clear? Is there some way to make it clearer?
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I agree. I'm saying people have argued differently. Hopefully reading the official WPA rules will clarify it for all. Once all the rules are read thoroughly, it is clear.
 
Sandman said:
I agree. I'm saying people have argued differently. Hopefully reading the official WPA rules will clarify it for all. Once all the rules are read thoroughly, it is clear.
Click to expand...

It seems to me the only issue is if there is both a breaking foul and a standard foul on the opening break. In this situation it would only occur if two object balls don't get a rail. Then you have a breaking foul for that and a standard foul for pocketing the cue ball. But the rules state pretty clearly that in the event both fouls occur it is treated as a breaking foul. So it's two points and the a possible re-break.

About the only thing I see that would perhaps be subject to debate is if pocketing the cue ball (while also not getting 2 balls to a rail) would constitute a standard foul for purposes of the three foul rule. But since the rule state that a double foul of this sort is treated as a breaking foul (in other words, not treated as a standard foul) I think the answer is no. I can't ever recall this coming up. I wonder if Jude or Bob have encountered a ruling in this situation.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
... About the only thing I see that would perhaps be subject to debate is if pocketing the cue ball (while also not getting 2 balls to a rail) would constitute a standard foul for purposes of the three foul rule. But since the rule state that a double foul of this sort is treated as a breaking foul (in other words, not treated as a standard foul) I think the answer is no. I can't ever recall this coming up. I wonder if Jude or Bob have encountered a ruling in this situation.
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I think the combination of 4.10 and 4.11 make it clear that a breaking foul is never the first of 3. One time I was playing a game and I just couldn't hit the corner ball full enough on the opening break. We counted my three breaking violations as three in a row. I know better now.
 
my opponent was eyeing a shot along the rail. another ball was jusr off the rail between the cb and the ob. He took a ball out of a pocket and used it as a gage to see if the cb would fit through the gap. I said, whoa, you can't do that. He asked, is that a foul? I said I thought that it was but since I didn't know the rule I was not calling it. Was I right?

Dave Nelson
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think the combination of 4.10 and 4.11 make it clear that a breaking foul is never the first of 3. One time I was playing a game and I just couldn't hit the corner ball full enough on the opening break. We counted my three breaking violations as three in a row. I know better now.
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Bob, as I said in my post I understand a breaking foul does not count towards the three foul rule. I also understand that a double foul (both cue ball scratch and two balls don't get a rail) is considered a breaking foul. Accordingly, I would think that if a double foul occurs you cannot use the CB scratch part of that double foul to apply towards the three foul rule. This is the only part that I think could be an issue but I don't think it is since, according to the rules a double foul is treated as a breaking foul, thus no standard foul is deemed to have occurred on the CB scratch. In other words, have you ever seen a player contend that although the double foul results in a 2 point penalty and a re-rack option, the CB scratch part of it also applies towards the three foul rule? I don't think it does but wondered if you've ever encountered that argument.

Now, if only a scratch occurs on an otherwise legal opening break, the incoming player gets BIH and the foul counts towards the three foul rule.
 
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Dave Nelson said:
my opponent was eyeing a shot along the rail. another ball was jusr off the rail between the cb and the ob. He took a ball out of a pocket and used it as a gage to see if the cb would fit through the gap. I said, whoa, you can't do that. He asked, is that a foul? I said I thought that it was but since I didn't know the rule I was not calling it. Was I right?

Dave Nelson
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Yeah, you cannot use a ball as a measuring device. It's inappropriate use of equipment and a sportsmanship violation. The penalty for any sportsmanship violation can vary. From my own personal experiences (one of the BCA head referees happens to be a league director / tournament director in my area), such actions will result in a standard foul.

You can use your cue or your hand for measurement but not anything else.
 
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