Rule question..

G

GWCobra

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New member. Thanks for allowing me entry..
Background Apa level 2/3. Unsure .. So very new. 2 months plating in group. Had a question regarding what was addressed last night.
To line up my shot placement I often put the cue tip behind object ball in an assumed ghost ball location and align to intended pocket. Then rotate pool shaft to cue ball location to see the best location to hit object ball (crude way I guess to see the contact points) but it tells me it's a 1/8 1/4 1/2 ball hit . Anyway a more experienced player called me aside and said that was a rule violation of marking the table.. ??? Said I left a small chalk mark on cloth at intended contact point and was a severe foul.. I wasn't even aware of the chalk mark to be honest.. it's just the way I am learning to aim and have been doing it that way... I can make a video if it clarifies my question if anyone needs.. I just don't want to be considered a cheat and if I need to change my method of aiming I will . It just left me with some bad feeling of being considered a cheat . Is there actually a rule on this method? Am I cheating? I'm sure over time I'll get a better grasp of contact points on object ball and not need to see it via my method. Maybe in future can just visualize it without using cue .. help anyone? Thanks G
 
GWCobra said:
New member. Thanks for allowing me entry..
Background Apa level 2/3. Unsure .. So very new. 2 months plating in group. Had a question regarding what was addressed last night.
To line up my shot placement I often put the cue tip behind object ball in an assumed ghost ball location and align to intended pocket. Then rotate pool shaft to cue ball location to see the best location to hit object ball (crude way I guess to see the contact points) but it tells me it's a 1/8 1/4 1/2 ball hit . Anyway a more experienced player called me aside and said that was a rule violation of marking the table.. ??? Said I left a small chalk mark on cloth at intended contact point and was a severe foul.. I wasn't even aware of the chalk mark to be honest.. it's just the way I am learning to aim and have been doing it that way... I can make a video if it clarifies my question if anyone needs.. I just don't want to be considered a cheat and if I need to change my method of aiming I will . It just left me with some bad feeling of being considered a cheat . Is there actually a rule on this method? Am I cheating? I'm sure over time I'll get a better grasp of contact points on object ball and not need to see it via my method. Maybe in future can just visualize it without using cue .. help anyone? Thanks G
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The guy's technically right, but nitpicking.

pj
chgo
 
GWCobra said:
... I often put the cue tip behind object ball in an assumed ghost ball location and align to intended pocket. Then rotate pool shaft to cue ball location ....
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This is a fairly common technique for lining up shots. It is also common that it runs into complaints about marking. I suppose you could ask your opponent if they are bothered by it. Keep the side of your tip clean so it doesn't leave chalk.

If you watch pro matches, no pro does this. I doubt that the location is good enough for harder shots.

Another place this comes up is when a player is lining up a bank or kick shot. He might put his cue along the path to the cushion. A chalk mark might be left under the cushion.
 
bbb said:
if you leave a chalk mark it is technically marking the table
if you dont
it is NOT a foul or violation
i will aim that way sometimes
just be carefull of the angle of your cue to avoid a chalk mark
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Yes Sir, will do. I tried to find the mark on table.. blue chalk, tournament blue cloth, I guess maybe I could see a small spot, not necessarily viewable from the shot making position, but anyway,, .. just had no idea it was cheating in the rules. Us newcomers need to read rules better. I guess I don't think it was cheating due to my crude method and the obvious misses that usually happen anyway.. marked or not 🤣
 
Bob Jewett said:
This is a fairly common technique for lining up shots. It is also common that it runs into complaints about marking. I suppose you could ask your opponent if they are bothered by it. Keep the side of your tip clean so it doesn't leave chalk.

If you watch pro matches, no pro does this. I doubt that the location is good enough for harder shots.

Another place this comes up is when a player is lining up a bank or kick shot. He might put his cue along the path to the cushion. A chalk mark might be left under the cushion.
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Understand and thank you for comment
 
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Bob Jewett said:
This is a fairly common technique for lining up shots. It is also common that it runs into complaints about marking. I suppose you could ask your opponent if they are bothered by it. Keep the side of your tip clean so it doesn't leave chalk.

If you watch pro matches, no pro does this. I doubt that the location is good enough for harder shots.

Another place this comes up is when a player is lining up a bank or kick shot. He might put his cue along the path to the cushion. A chalk mark might be left under the cushion.
Click to expand...
Yeah the pros likely wouldn't need my crude technique and they probably see the angle contact point without even thinking. Just natural to them.. but I am not good, and still miss most " marked" points anyway.. I don't know if I just got a rule violation Nazi on my case , or if I offended someone. It wasn't even my match player, just another member watching I guess .. was just kind of unnerving to be called a cheat when I suck and obviously cheating ain't working for me 🤣
 
MitchAlsup said:
Give yourself 3 months of playing regularly, and your need to do it this way will diminish. You will get to the point where your tip does not need to touch the table. Another 3 months and you won't have to do this on 90%+ of your shots.
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Yes Sir.. thank you for your input
 
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A few comments.

First, congrats on joining league play. APA is a good place to start as it is intended for amateur players.

You mention that new players should read the rules better. I'd be happy if new players read the rules *at all*. There are a few APA Facebook groups where rules questions can be answered in black and white right in the APA rule book yet questions are posted on the group - with the expected totally wrong answers and subsequent name-calling and debate. Yes, please read the rules and familiarize yourself well. You might also look up other league rules, such as BCA, VNEA, etc., and even the WPA rules so you know when someone is challenging a situation and they're quoting some other rule set (or worse, some obscure bar rule).

As a new APA player, please learn how to keep score to help out your teammates and captain. It will also help you stay engaged in the night's competition and you will likely learn lots - both what to do and what not to do.

As far as the person taking you aside, I have a feeling it was with good intentions. I have often pulled new players (on the other team, usually with their captain's permission) aside to explain that something they had done was a foul, even if we didn't call it. (The most common example is a double hit where the cue ball and object ball are close but not touching, and the player pushes through resulting in a double hit. I typically let them slide - the first time. But I explain it to them if their captain doesn't do so and tell them I'll call it the next time.)

I'll let other people comment on aim technique. As others have mentioned, soon you will have other methods to recognize the aim points and will no longer need to use the technique you use now.

Welcome to the addiction.
 
dquarasr said:
A few comments.

First, congrats on joining league play. APA is a good place to start as it is intended for amateur players.

You mention that new players should read the rules better. I'd be happy if new players read the rules *at all*. There are a few APA Facebook groups where rules questions can be answered in black and white right in the APA rule book yet questions are posted on the group - with the expected totally wrong answers and subsequent name-calling and debate. Yes, please read the rules and familiarize yourself well. You might also look up other league rules, such as BCA, VNEA, etc., and even the WPA rules so you know when someone is challenging a situation and they're quoting some other rule set (or worse, some obscure bar rule).

As a new APA player, please learn how to keep score to help out your teammates and captain. It will also help you stay engaged in the night's competition and you will likely learn lots - both what to do and what not to do.

As far as the person taking you aside, I have a feeling it was with good intentions. I have often pulled new players (on the other team, usually with their captain's permission) aside to explain that something they had done was a foul, even if we didn't call it. (The most common example is a double hit where the cue ball and object ball are close but not touching, and the player pushes through resulting in a double hit. I typically let them slide - the first time. But I explain it to them if their captain doesn't do so and tell them I'll call it the next time.)

I'll let other people comment on aim technique. As others have mentioned, soon you will have other methods to recognize the aim points and will no longer need to use the technique you use now.

Welcome to the addiction.
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Thank you Sir! For your input and the welcome. It's been fun so far and I'm just getting started. I've had my own table (8ft slate) . for 3 yrs and maybe played on it 4-5 times, but a recent vacation to Dominican Republic (alot of playing at night) has got me interested again. I have read the rules, and got a few people to interpret a few questions, but this one caught me off guard with the implications that I was purposely doing a rule infraction.. maybe I just took it wrong and felt attacked instead of educated. I'm going to play tonite, and will take everyone's input into consideration. It seems like it is an accepted learning technique, but maybe just don't have your tip side chalked heavy to leave marks, or maybe just hover it over the point(be hard to hold I think) but as one person pointed out, in a few months of actively playing my method will no longer be needed . Thanks again!
 
GWCobra said:
Yeah the pros likely wouldn't need my crude technique and they probably see the angle contact point without even thinking. Just natural to them.. but I am not good, and still miss most " marked" points anyway.. I don't know if I just got a rule violation Nazi on my case , or if I offended someone. It wasn't even my match player, just another member watching I guess .. was just kind of unnerving to be called a cheat when I suck and obviously cheating ain't working for me 🤣
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First of all, welcome!

But to mr Jewett’s comment I’d like to say I wholeheartedly agree with him.

And it’s not exactly “cheating” but can be seen as such in the eyes of someone looking for any little thing to complain about.

And as others have said, you will naturally move on from this method of yours anyway. Don’t put too much stock into the ramifications long term.

Keep at it, GWC
 
InsertCleverNameHere said:
First of all, welcome!

But to mr Jewett’s comment I’d like to say I wholeheartedly agree with him.

And it’s not exactly “cheating” but can be seen as such in the eyes of someone looking for any little thing to complain about.

And as others have said, you will naturally move on from this method of yours anyway. Don’t put too much stock into the ramifications long term.

Keep at it, GWC
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Yes Sir. Thanks for the input and welcoming. I feel better about the situation already due to y'all's comments today..
 
In my opinion, "aiming" is mostly about seeing shot lines and recognizing angles. There is absolutely NO substitute for this on difficult shots. Systems such as the one you're using are helpful because they get you close to where you need to be, and allow your subconscious to recognize and adjust faster.
Another very critical factor is how solid you can get your fundamentals. The quicker you can develop a consistent, repeatable stroke, the better your shot knowledge building will be. Without solid fundamentals, the whole process is made much more difficult and time consuming. Consistency + repetition = success. Systems will cut down the amount of repetition you need.
 
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The oldtimers in our local cash league tried to call one of my team members on this a while back saying he was marking the table. I told them to point out which specific mark he made on the table that had not seen a brush since the the cloth was installed. When they couldn't point out the specific mark he made, I got in touch with the league director and he ended up removing that rule.
 
It’s pretty simple. You can’t mark the table to use for aiming purposes. You clearly are not intentionally leaving a mark to aim at. You’re just using your stick to help visualize the shooting line to the ghost ball position. But if you do end up leaving a mark then your opponent has evidence for their argument.

But the main thing is that it’s a bad practice. It’s a crutch that is not accurate enough to be worth doing and is honestly holding you back from actually developing real aim. Pool is a precision sport. You need the cueball to contact the object ball exactly where you intended. Your aiming should be trying to make that happen with pinpoint accuracy. Your approach is all rough estimations where you’re trying to aim at something derived from the contact point instead of aligning directly to the contact point itself.
 
MitchAlsup said:
Give yourself 3 months of playing regularly, and your need to do it this way will diminish. You will get to the point where your tip does not need to touch the table. Another 3 months and you won't have to do this on 90%+ of your shots.
Click to expand...
Agreed, the sooner you can get over that habit, the better for your game. As a young player, the best advice I ever got from an experienced player was to stop doing something similar to what you describe doing.
 
Here's what you do. Wipe the loose chalk off your tip. Palm works fine - hey you gotta get your hands dirty at some point.
Here's what I think about the marking rule:
It's for league dogs that want to appear pro. The value apparently is they never learn how to aim and keep the rosters full.
I do agree that you needn't make actual marks but laying your stick on the table/leaving chalk cubes as a reference - Who GAF?
 
dquarasr said:
As far as the person taking you aside, I have a feeling it was with good intentions. I have often pulled new players (on the other team, usually with their captain's permission) aside to explain that something they had done was a foul, even if we didn't call it. (The most common example is a double hit where the cue ball and object ball are close but not touching, and the player pushes through resulting in a double hit. I typically let them slide - the first time. But I explain it to them if their captain doesn't do so and tell them I'll call it the next time.)
Click to expand...
That's how I feel when I play a less experienced player. They are already struggling with the game, I don't need to can the foul to beat them, and don't of the rules can seem obscure at first. Double hits are the toughest because most people don't know what it is, don't think it happened, and don't know the rule. You have to convince them of three things.
 
tomatoshooter said:
That's how I feel when I play a less experienced player. They are already struggling with the game, I don't need to can the foul to beat them, and don't of the rules can seem obscure at first. Double hits are the toughest because most people don't know what it is, don't think it happened, and don't know the rule. You have to convince them of three things.
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Oooph. Or when they move two balls. Or move one ball that affects the outcome of the shot.
 
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