Rules Question - APA

buzzsaw said:
You're right it is outlandish, but if the rule is vague I can see someone using it to their advantage.

Personally, I wait until the ball has stopped completely. That way there is no question.


I mean, you have to look at it as a case by case thing. If you have two good 7s playing eachother, picking up the cueball before it breaks open ANY cluster could be construed as a violation of the rule since A. the player should know better and B. He may have prevented his opponent from winning the game by doing so. If you have a couple of 4s playing eachother, knowledge of the rule and the impact it may have had on the integrity of the game are different.
 
Call goes to the Shooter????????

Jude Rosenstock said:
If EVER you have an opponent who has used the "call goes to the shooter" rule when he was blatantly wrong, just smile and proceed to shoot a combination WITH HIS BALL FIRST in the very next game. When he announces it was a foul, insist it wasn't and that the call goes to the shooter. Play the entire game that way so long as you run out.

If you're playing 9-ball, just shoot the 9-ball in. If all the other balls are on the table, even better. When the 9-ball drops, raise your cue in the air and yell "I WIN!"

When you're done evening the score, ask him if he'd like to play normal again.

Don't have the rule book in front of me but I believe it says "if the hit is QUESTIONABLE" so if the hit is not questionable then the call goes to the shooter.
 
Bigkahuna said:
Don't have the rule book in front of me but I believe it says "if the hit is QUESTIONABLE" so if the hit is not questionable then the call goes to the shooter.


Yes but if you've played against an opponent who is obviously using this rule to his advantage (I mean blatantly cheating), the word "questionable" becomes very vague. Usually, all it takes is for the shooter to say, "I thought it was good" and the argument is supposed to be over.
 
Very good posts on this topic. There are the rules and then there are the "spirit of the rules". Whenever you read a rule book, you can usually tell what it is that they are talking about, and what they are trying to acomplish with the given rule in the given situation. The overall bottom line is trying to establish fair play. What I hate is when people do know what they are up to , but try to intentionally misrepresent a given rule. The spirit of the rules should apply, when there is a doubt in the execution of a rule. ask "why did they put this rule here?" , "what was the intent of the rule?" If you honestly answer this, you usually know how to properly interpret a rule.

It is when people try to shape them to benefit them in a paticular situation is when the problems come in.

One of my biggest irritations is when you play in a league or any match for that matter, and everyone knows everyone, and have all played many times in the past, but all of a sudden it is the end of the session, or tournamnet, and now all the rulebooks come out. Now EVERYTHING is an issue, and it all has to be checked and discussed, and interpreted, etc.

It always amazes me that people can get together every week ( or more often) and know how to play this game under all kinds of circumstances, then suddenly, no one has a clue how to proceed without checking a book or making a phone call.

I remember an APA match many years ago. This was in inhouse league. EVERYONE played in the same pool room EVERY week. There may have been 8 teams in all. Well my team was playing the final match and we were tied. It comes down to the last game. I am shooting the eight, my opponenet has a few balls left on the table. I have no good shot on the eight, and no good safety either, because he has a couple of hangers sitting there. I call (and mark my pocket) the cross side bank shot. Now my cue ball is very close to the eight ball, and I really am going to have a hard time getting the hit on the eight that I need to bank it. I end up jacking up my cue and basically shooting a short masse bank shot. Really just a curve to maximize the cut for the angle and spin to get the eight even close to the right line. Well, I made the intention very clear , marked my pocket, took a lot of time lining it up, looked at it from eight different angles, elevated my cue, took some practice strokes, and forgot everything, and fired it in. I was more suprised than anybody that it actually went in. Well my team jumps up, very happy about it. The other team says, you can't do that!, etc. Pulling out the rules, making phone calls. The end result is we got first place, but it was just ridiculous.

I do not want to argue whether it was legal or not. In fact I actually think that under APA rules you can't play any masse shots at all where you elevate the cue much. This is not the point. The point is that this was a very informal league in a small kiddie pool room where the highest ranked player was maybe a five. I could have played that shot at any other time and nobody would have blinked. They all knew my intent with plenty of opportunity to question it and check it, but of course it was expected to be a miss, and a loss. So nobody bothered.... untill it went in.
Just like there are regulations about tables, but by starting the match you are agreeing to the validity of the equipment. You can;t lose a match, go back later and measure the pockets and check it out, and say "that ddn't count, this table isn't regulation!" This is why the rule about it going to the shooter applies, it is harder to argue a position after the fact.
 
poolpro said:
Very good posts on this topic. There are the rules and then there are the "spirit of the rules". Whenever you read a rule book, you can usually tell what it is that they are talking about, and what they are trying to acomplish with the given rule in the given situation. The overall bottom line is trying to establish fair play. What I hate is when people do know what they are up to , but try to intentionally misrepresent a given rule. The spirit of the rules should apply, when there is a doubt in the execution of a rule. ask "why did they put this rule here?" , "what was the intent of the rule?" If you honestly answer this, you usually know how to properly interpret a rule.

It is when people try to shape them to benefit them in a paticular situation is when the problems come in.

One of my biggest irritations is when you play in a league or any match for that matter, and everyone knows everyone, and have all played many times in the past, but all of a sudden it is the end of the session, or tournamnet, and now all the rulebooks come out. Now EVERYTHING is an issue, and it all has to be checked and discussed, and interpreted, etc.

It always amazes me that people can get together every week ( or more often) and know how to play this game under all kinds of circumstances, then suddenly, no one has a clue how to proceed without checking a book or making a phone call.

I remember an APA match many years ago. This was in inhouse league. EVERYONE played in the same pool room EVERY week. There may have been 8 teams in all. Well my team was playing the final match and we were tied. It comes down to the last game. I am shooting the eight, my opponenet has a few balls left on the table. I have no good shot on the eight, and no good safety either, because he has a couple of hangers sitting there. I call (and mark my pocket) the cross side bank shot. Now my cue ball is very close to the eight ball, and I really am going to have a hard time getting the hit on the eight that I need to bank it. I end up jacking up my cue and basically shooting a short masse bank shot. Really just a curve to maximize the cut for the angle and spin to get the eight even close to the right line. Well, I made the intention very clear , marked my pocket, took a lot of time lining it up, looked at it from eight different angles, elevated my cue, took some practice strokes, and forgot everything, and fired it in. I was more suprised than anybody that it actually went in. Well my team jumps up, very happy about it. The other team says, you can't do that!, etc. Pulling out the rules, making phone calls. The end result is we got first place, but it was just ridiculous.

I do not want to argue whether it was legal or not. In fact I actually think that under APA rules you can't play any masse shots at all where you elevate the cue much. This is not the point. The point is that this was a very informal league in a small kiddie pool room where the highest ranked player was maybe a five. I could have played that shot at any other time and nobody would have blinked. They all knew my intent with plenty of opportunity to question it and check it, but of course it was expected to be a miss, and a loss. So nobody bothered.... untill it went in.
Just like there are regulations about tables, but by starting the match you are agreeing to the validity of the equipment. You can;t lose a match, go back later and measure the pockets and check it out, and say "that ddn't count, this table isn't regulation!" This is why the rule about it going to the shooter applies, it is harder to argue a position after the fact.

I agree with you here. There is a "spirit of the rule" element that is occasionally forgotten, especially when it comes to APA play. The best example I can think of (which I've posted here before) was a situation where a player had ball-in-hand. He decided to place the cueball at the edge of the corner pocket. When he got down on his shot, he proceeded to adjust the cueball with his cue and accidentally pushed the cueball into the pocket. The other team said this was a foul and cited the rule that "any time the cue ball enters the pocket, it is a foul". Well, this isn't the right call. The wording was meant for situations during a shot NOT when ball-in-hand was being exercised. I mentioned to them the rule also states that every time the cueball falls on the floor, it is also a foul. Did that mean that if my opponent picks up the cueball from the ball-return and drops it on the floor, I can call foul? Everybody laughed and realized that interpretation was needed sometimes.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yes but if you've played against an opponent who is obviously using this rule to his advantage (I mean blatantly cheating), the word "questionable" becomes very vague. Usually, all it takes is for the shooter to say, "I thought it was good" and the argument is supposed to be over.

This is an issue mostly depending on who you are playing. I have shot against people that I can walk away from, come back and they are handing me the cue ball because they scratched. Others will foul, and even though we both know it, they'd look at me like nothing happened waiting for me to say something to he can argue. I took losses from a guy in a league match because I knew calling a close foul would rile him up. You may have no pick who you play in the APA, but outside of that, just don't play with them, and talk about it loud enough that they know where they stand with their reputation. Waiting for the cue to stop rolling is a set rule, but one that is broken a lot and usually with no call against it. About the same thing with with just giving someone a game on a scratched 9-ball. I bet lots of people (outside these hallowed forums ofcourse ;) ) think scratching on the 9 is a loss, but it's really just a spot up and ball in hand. I guess those would be "gentleman non-calls", much like not having to call every single hanger in a game, but only banks and so forth. Although giving up the game on a 9 ball scratch is not usually a foul but just respect for the shooter.
 
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Jude Rosenstock said:
I mean, you have to look at it as a case by case thing. If you have two good 7s playing eachother, picking up the cueball before it breaks open ANY cluster could be construed as a violation of the rule since A. the player should know better and B. He may have prevented his opponent from winning the game by doing so. If you have a couple of 4s playing eachother, knowledge of the rule and the impact it may have had on the integrity of the game are different.
While I have a problem with the double standards issue, I understand what you're trying to convey.

Bottom line is you should wait until all balls, in play, come to a rest before you try to continue.
 
Poolpro, you are dead on with this post, I've seen this behaviour happen many times at session ending or City tournaments. Teams can go the whole session without pulling the rule book out but then comes the "tournaments" and here come the dust covered rule books where everyone seems to now have a degree in rules interpretation, being able to quote chapter and verse. The human is a strange species---LOL
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Actually, it needs to be a "game losing situation". See page 51, Rule 10 f.
http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

If, for example, you foul while shooting a stripe and the cueball is rolling into an area of the table that's empty and you pick-up cue-ball. This is a concession of a foul and no additional penalty is given.

However, if on this same shot, you foul and the cueball is heading directly toward an 8ball hanging near the pocket, picking up the cueball would be an automatic loss of game.

I've seen this argument play out before. Of course you can pick up the cueball while it's rolling if you are conceding a foul so long as it can be assumed you are not disturbing the game.

In that case, the APA in my area has been enforcing this rule incorrectly. I have been told by a referee at tri-annuals, that intentionally touching a moving cue ball at any point during the rack is loss of game, regardless of whether it could have been a game-losing situation, and I have seen that rule enforced in a non-game-losing situation. Next time I get the chance, I'll bring this up with the guy who runs our region.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
In that case, the APA in my area has been enforcing this rule incorrectly. I have been told by a referee at tri-annuals, that intentionally touching a moving cue ball at any point during the rack is loss of game, regardless of whether it could have been a game-losing situation, and I have seen that rule enforced in a non-game-losing situation. Next time I get the chance, I'll bring this up with the guy who runs our region.

-Andrew


Wow, that's awesome! I'm honored to be of service, sir.
 
Andrew Manning said:
In that case, the APA in my area has been enforcing this rule incorrectly. I have been told by a referee at tri-annuals, that intentionally touching a moving cue ball at any point during the rack is loss of game, regardless of whether it could have been a game-losing situation, and I have seen that rule enforced in a non-game-losing situation. Next time I get the chance, I'll bring this up with the guy who runs our region.

-Andrew

Everyone should remember that each individual APA league area can have local bylaws that are basically add-on rules to the team manual. While most bylaws are not allowed to change the standard rules of the game that APA is played by, you can have amended rules that enforce penalties if they are needed.

For example, if you toss the cue ball across the table in frustration and disturb the table layout, it's loss of game per the local bylaws in my league area. Mine might be the only area that actually has this as a bylaw, but several infractions required that we create a rule that penalizes such poor sportsmanship. There are too many small infractions that can come up in a match to list them all in the team manual, so it's up to each league area to add these extra rules as they feel the need. Each player should familiarize themselves with their own local bylaws and know the difference between a bylaw and the manual, because outside of your league area, your local bylaws do not apply.

The simple rule is to let the balls come to a complete stop. In the time it takes you to put down your cue, whether it's to lay it on the table, lean it against the table or back at your bar stool and then proceed to get 9 or 15 balls out for your opponent to rack, the balls should have been at a complete stop for several seconds.

There is absolutely no reason to ever grab a moving ball. And the argument that "it wasn't going to scratch" doesn't cut it with me, because the moment they stopped the ball from rolling, they took away any opportunity to prove to me it wasn't going to scratch.

If you want to defy playing within the spirit of the rules, which includes letting rolling balls come to a stop on their own, then allow me to show you how well I enforce the rules.
 
Hey Andrew I was about to point out the same thing but APA LO beat me to it. Being that it's LT's Region he can set the rules. The nature of which is to simply keep it as simple as possible, touch a moving cue ball it's loss of game end of story, I've played this region for 7 years it's alway's be the same. I don't like it either but it's the rules.

Black Cat :cool:
 
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