Rules Question - APA

[stikapos]

This happened last night in league play and the more I thought about it, the more I wondered whether an infraction actually occurred, at least based on APA rules. After successfully pocketing an 8 ball, a shooter swept the cue ball into the kitchen for the next break with his cue. The problem is that the cue ball had not yet come to rest and was rolling towards the side pocket. Whether it would have scratched or not, who knows, but it had at least a chance of scratching. There is no direct rule that counts this as a foul, but I would guess that the infraction would be a double hit to the cue ball. Any opinions ?


tim

 

[cigardave]

I'd call it a foul if that was a chance for whitey to scratch. The shot is not over until all the balls come to rest.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This happened last night in league play and the more I thought about it, the more I wondered whether an infraction actually occurred, at least based on APA rules. After successfully pocketing an 8 ball, a shooter swept the cue ball into the kitchen for the next break with his cue. The problem is that the cue ball had not yet come to rest and was rolling towards the side pocket. Whether it would have scratched or not, who knows, but it had at least a chance of scratching. There is no direct rule that counts this as a foul, but I would guess that the infraction would be a double hit to the cue ball. Any opinions ?


tim

If there was a remote chance the cueball could have scratched, it is an automatic loss of game. I believe it's under "ways you can lose".

 

[McChen]

that's definitely a foul, the cue ball is always live

i found the rule:
f. A game is forfeited if you alter the course of the
8-ball or the cue ball in a game losing situation.

 

[Andrew Manning]

If there was a remote chance the cueball could have scratched, it is an automatic loss of game. I believe it's under "ways you can lose".

Even if there's not a remote chance the cue ball would have scratched, intentionally altering the course of a rolling CB at anytime during the game is a loss-of-game penalty in APA.

-Andrew

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Even if there's not a remote chance the cue ball would have scratched, intentionally altering the course of a rolling CB at anytime during the game is a loss-of-game penalty in APA.

-Andrew

Actually, it needs to be a "game losing situation". See page 51, Rule 10 f.
http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

If, for example, you foul while shooting a stripe and the cueball is rolling into an area of the table that's empty and you pick-up cue-ball. This is a concession of a foul and no additional penalty is given.

However, if on this same shot, you foul and the cueball is heading directly toward an 8ball hanging near the pocket, picking up the cueball would be an automatic loss of game.

I've seen this argument play out before. Of course you can pick up the cueball while it's rolling if you are conceding a foul so long as it can be assumed you are not disturbing the game.

 

[FLICKit]

Even if there's not a remote chance the cue ball would have scratched, intentionally altering the course of a rolling CB at anytime during the game is a loss-of-game penalty in APA.

Actually, that's not true. I think you knew what you meant to say, but there are some situation where that's not quite accurate.

McChen answered it correctly according to the rules... It's only a loss of game in a potentially game losing situation...

Since my post was just seconds behind... Ditto Jude...

 

[stikapos]

Hey, thanks guys for your responses. So, does the rule mean that you there is some other foul that must take place first ? So, if I pocket an 8 ball and I'm going to scratch and I pick up the cue ball before it does, I'm okay ??? Or is that a ball in hand foul. Jude, I'm sure this type of call can be a dandy....

Thanks,
tim

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Hey, thanks guys for your responses. So, does the rule mean that you there is some other foul that must take place first ? So, if I pocket an 8 ball and I'm going to scratch and I pick up the cue ball before it does, I'm okay ??? Or is that a ball in hand foul. Jude, I'm sure this type of call can be a dandy....

Thanks,
tim

Well, the APA rules specify that pocketing the cueball while shooting the 8ball is a loss of game so preventing the cueball from going into the pocket would also be a loss of game.

I mean, the bottom line is, it's a bad habit to have. If the cueball is heading toward balls or a pocket, it's best not to touch it. If you pocket the 8ball for the win, go get your break cue and allow your opponent to rack. When you get back to the table then go get the cueball (most polite opponents will roll it into the kitchen for you). I've been doing this for years and I never have a problem. You should do this when you're playing league, tournaments or for money. It's just a good way to go about it.

 

[poolpro]

Under strict rules, yes once the eight ball was pocketed, and the cue is still moving, it would be a game losing situation, so yes it could be called loss of game. Also do not forget that sometimes grabbing the cue in certain situations can also fall under unsportsmanlike conduct too.

If you honestly believe that the cue had an honest chance of scratching, I would call it a foul, loss of game. Obviously the opponenet, will usually go nuts at this point and carry on that there was no way it could have possibly scratched. It is still the opponents resposibility to not touch the ball while in motion, and it would not matter if it was not going to scratch or not.

I personally would ONLY call this in a blatant situation. Even though you are technically right, most of the time it is not worth the argument. League is mainly for fun, so it isn't worth it to call EVERY thing, just because you can. Besides, if this is what this guy has to do to win, is he really a threat to beating you? I know it doesn't make it right, and you should always be aware of the rules so you have the authority to shut down people if they try to take advantage, but most of the time it just aint worth it. If it happenend to me, and it was just moving and probably wasn't going to make it to the hole anyway, I would remind him of the rule, and tell hime that the next time I WILL call it.

Again, if you REALLY believe that it was going to scratch, and it was the match winner, go ahead and call it. The player is at fault for touching the cue ball while in motion. Just decide beforehand if the argument ( and there will be one) is worth it yo you.

 

[Bigkahuna]

APA Rule

Actually, it needs to be a "game losing situation". See page 51, Rule 10 f.
http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

If, for example, you foul while shooting a stripe and the cueball is rolling into an area of the table that's empty and you pick-up cue-ball. This is a concession of a foul and no additional penalty is given.

However, if on this same shot, you foul and the cueball is heading directly toward an 8ball hanging near the pocket, picking up the cueball would be an automatic loss of game.

I've seen this argument play out before. Of course you can pick up the cueball while it's rolling if you are conceding a foul so long as it can be assumed you are not disturbing the game.

Jude is correct. I referreed at the nationals last year and the APA made it clear that only if the cue COULD have scratched would it be a loss of game. Of course two sides could have argued the point and always best to not touch the cue ball until it has completley stopped rolling. If I was playing an opponent that stopped the cue while it was heading anywhere near a pocket or another ball I would call the game a loss for the opponent.

 

[stikapos]

Wonderful responses! Unfortunately, the guy wasn't a nasty player (which would have made it easier to call), but it did have an impact on the match. Except for cue ball fouls, its always tough to call this type of foul. The "decision goes to the shooter" has a lot to do with this as unless you are right on top of the shot, or the other team sees it also and decides to be sportsmanlike, you really have little shot of maintaining most fouls.

thanks so much for weighing in on this subject,
tim

 

[buzzsaw]

OK, what if the cueball was heading toward a cluster of balls and I grabbed it before breaking them up? It could have been a game losing situation if they scattered. Would this be ball-in-hand or loss of game or a thump on the head?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Wonderful responses! Unfortunately, the guy wasn't a nasty player (which would have made it easier to call), but it did have an impact on the match. Except for cue ball fouls, its always tough to call this type of foul. The "decision goes to the shooter" has a lot to do with this as unless you are right on top of the shot, or the other team sees it also and decides to be sportsmanlike, you really have little shot of maintaining most fouls.

thanks so much for weighing in on this subject,
tim

If EVER you have an opponent who has used the "call goes to the shooter" rule when he was blatantly wrong, just smile and proceed to shoot a combination WITH HIS BALL FIRST in the very next game. When he announces it was a foul, insist it wasn't and that the call goes to the shooter. Play the entire game that way so long as you run out.

If you're playing 9-ball, just shoot the 9-ball in. If all the other balls are on the table, even better. When the 9-ball drops, raise your cue in the air and yell "I WIN!"

When you're done evening the score, ask him if he'd like to play normal again.

 

[klockdoc]

Game called in APA

I'm not sure of the year (back in the mid 90's) that it occurred, but, there was situation in the APA finals in Las Vegas whereas a team had won the championship.

After shooting in the game winning 8 ball, the player through his cue stick on the table in excitement. Everyone was jumping up and down.

The cue stick interrupted the path of the cue ball (which was still moving) and the other team called a foul. APA upheld the foul decision.

 

[stikapos]

This is pretty hilarious, and I'm imagining, very effective. I'll keep it in my memory banks...

If EVER you have an opponent who has used the "call goes to the shooter" rule when he was blatantly wrong, just smile and proceed to shoot a combination WITH HIS BALL FIRST in the very next game. When he announces it was a foul, insist it wasn't and that the call goes to the shooter. Play the entire game that way so long as you run out.

If you're playing 9-ball, just shoot the 9-ball in. If all the other balls are on the table, even better. When the 9-ball drops, raise your cue in the air and yell "I WIN!"

When you're done evening the score, ask him if he'd like to play normal again.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

OK, what if the cueball was heading toward a cluster of balls and I grabbed it before breaking them up? It could have been a game losing situation if they scattered. Would this be ball-in-hand or loss of game?

You're beginning to enter outlandish territory HOWEVER, the APA CAN get pretty outlandish at times. In such scenarios, I think it's important to maintain the integrity of the game AND to educate your opponent on the rules. However, I don't think any rule should be manipulated. The loss must be somewhat foreseeable (ie., a hanging 8-ball and balls are heading near it).

If your opponent picks up a cueball prematurely and it's not foreseeable, I would say, "Hey listen, you're not supposed to pick up the cueball like that. It can be a loss of game in some situations and I'd like to avoid that argument. Can we wait until it stops moving next time?"

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This is pretty hilarious, and I'm imagining, very effective. I'll keep it in my memory banks...

Unfortunately, it is probably the only way to protect yourself from a cheater. In most sports, a degree of integrity is necessary in order to have fair play. If we were professionals and this sport was incredibly lucrative, we could have three referees presiding over a match with cameras at all angles for replay. However, we don't so we have to rely on some honesty. If your opponent has made it clear he has no intent to be honest then you should return the favor.

 

[buzzsaw]

You're beginning to enter outlandish territory HOWEVER, the APA CAN get pretty outlandish at times. In such scenarios, I think it's important to maintain the integrity of the game AND to educate your opponent on the rules. However, I don't think any rule should be manipulated. The loss must be somewhat foreseeable (ie., a hanging 8-ball and balls are heading near it).

If your opponent picks up a cueball prematurely and it's not foreseeable, I would say, "Hey listen, you're not supposed to pick up the cueball like that. It can be a loss of game in some situations and I'd like to avoid that argument. Can we wait until it stops moving next time?"

You're right it is outlandish, but if the rule is vague I can see someone using it to their advantage.

Personally, I wait until the ball has stopped completely. That way there is no question.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'm not sure of the year (back in the mid 90's) that it occurred, but, there was situation in the APA finals in Las Vegas whereas a team had won the championship.

After shooting in the game winning 8 ball, the player through his cue stick on the table in excitement. Everyone was jumping up and down.

The cue stick interrupted the path of the cue ball (which was still moving) and the other team called a foul. APA upheld the foul decision.

When I was in high school, the Bronx Science Girls' Swim Team won the City Championships. When their first swimmer touched the wall for the win, the entire team jumped into the pool in celebration but the race wasn't over yet. Their swimmers were disqualified and they lost the match.