Ruling Revision???

[klockdoc]

Scenario: Player gets up to shoot in their shot. Positions their body by the side pocket. Cuts in the OB and CB comes off the end rail and hangs in the corner pocket. Player leaves original shooting position to play next shot. CB FALLS INTO THE POCKET.Referee is called. Player contends that 5 seconds has passed.

RULING: BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY. If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves "by itself," the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket "by itself" after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue.

Referee replaces the CB and play continues. Incoming player doesn't have any argument even though they do not feel 5 seconds has passed.
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I thought this rule was originally created for a situation whereas the player has left the table and the ball has fallen into the pocket. 5 seconds is a long time when you actually watch it pass on a clock.

Now if the player had actually left their original position and was over the shot shooting it and it fell, then I could agree with this ruling, but, not after the finishing the shot and the CB drops just as they are getting ready to leave to go to the next shot.

I think the ruling should stay the same for OB, but, limit CB instances to only apply when being over the shot; whether in the shooting or attempted shooting position. If it falls before that, it is considered a scratch.

Your thoughts?

 

[av84fun]

I think the rule is OK as is. In the absence of a ref, there will always be the potential for arguments but that is true regarding lots of other issues as well.

The ref who might be called in for a ruling has the ability to consult who he believes to be neutral spectators.

Other than that, the parking lot is always a venue where such disputes can be settled! (kidding of course)

(-:
Jim

 

[hang-the-9]

Scenario: Player gets up to shoot in their shot. Positions their body by the side pocket. Cuts in the OB and CB comes off the end rail and hangs in the corner pocket. Player leaves original shooting position to play next shot. CB FALLS INTO THE POCKET.Referee is called. Player contends that 5 seconds has passed.

RULING: BALLS MOVING SPONTANEOUSLY. If a ball shifts, settles, turns or otherwise moves "by itself," the ball shall remain in the position it assumed and play continues. A hanging ball that falls into a pocket "by itself" after being motionless for 5 seconds or longer shall be replaced as closely as possible to its position prior to falling, and play shall continue.

Referee replaces the CB and play continues. Incoming player doesn't have any argument even though they do not feel 5 seconds has passed.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I thought this rule was originally created for a situation whereas the player has left the table and the ball has fallen into the pocket. 5 seconds is a long time when you actually watch it pass on a clock.

Now if the player had actually left their original position and was over the shot shooting it and it fell, then I could agree with this ruling, but, not after the finishing the shot and the CB drops just as they are getting ready to leave to go to the next shot.

I think the ruling should stay the same for OB, but, limit CB instances to only apply when being over the shot; whether in the shooting or attempted shooting position. If it falls before that, it is considered a scratch.

Your thoughts?

I don't think that would be a scratch, in fact, it is more likely to be a scratch once the person has moved into the next shot. If a ball is hanging very close to the edge, the motion of the player getting up off a shot, shifting the cloth a tiny bit, vibration of the shot hitting a rail or pocket, they all can send a ball off the edge and into a pocket. As long as you are not near the cueball when that happens, I don't see how that counts as different than the object ball dropping. Now once you get over the shot, and the cueball falls in, that is more on the player. Even then, unless the player shifted funny and was seen coming close to touching the ball, I would, if I was the ref, place the ball in it's old position and not count it as a foul.

 

[klockdoc]

I don't think that would be a scratch, in fact, it is more likely to be a scratch once the person has moved into the next shot. If a ball is hanging very close to the edge, the motion of the player getting up off a shot, shifting the cloth a tiny bit, vibration of the shot hitting a rail or pocket, they all can send a ball off the edge and into a pocket. As long as you are not near the cueball when that happens, I don't see how that counts as different than the object ball dropping. Now once you get over the shot, and the cueball falls in, that is more on the player. Even then, unless the player shifted funny and was seen coming close to touching the ball, I would, if I was the ref, place the ball in it's old position and not count it as a foul.

Now if the OB fell into the pocket, in the same type of scenario you explained, you are saying that the OB should come back up also?? Then the player doesn't continue to shoot?

 

[hang-the-9]

Now if the OB fell into the pocket, in the same type of scenario you explained, you are saying that the OB should come back up also?? Then the player doesn't continue to shoot?

I was more explaining why a seeming still ball would drop all of a sudden than pointing the blame on the shooter. For all intents, the rule of 5 seconds then it comes back up should be used if it's the cue or the object ball. It's very hard to point to something and say "this is what caused the ball to drop" after it has been sitting in the jaws. Heck, someone could walk by fast and the air motion could make the ball drop. I think that is why they made the 5 second rule. If it fell in during that time, the player had control over the occurance, after that it's not the shooters fault. Although I would keep an eye on some players hitting the table after a hung ball to make it drop, I would count that as a foul. You know, get mad, whack the rail and all of a sudden it falls in. Then they are all happy and go to shoot again.

 

[jongreve]

Not sure if I like the "5 seconds" part or not. The rule is essentially fine. If the cue ball scratches before the next shot has been addressed, I feel it to be a scratch. Once the shot has been addressed and the cue ball falls before contact is made, I would think it to be returned as a no-foul situation.

The 5 second rule probably arose for game ball situations.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I thought this rule was originally created for a situation whereas the player has left the table and the ball has fallen into the pocket. 5 seconds is a long time when you actually watch it pass on a clock. ...
Your thoughts?

Where the player is or is not has no bearing on the "hanging ball" situation. You are not permitted to linger over the table for half an hour hoping your hung nine ball will drop, nor is it helpful to run from the table if the cue ball hangs on the brink.

The problem is to determine when a shot has finished. Normally it is when the balls have come to rest. If a ball is on the brink, you have to decide how long to wait. At one point the time was three seconds. Pat Fleming suggested five, and that's what went into the pro 9-ball rules in 1987 and appears in the current World Standardized Rules. I see that the 1914 rules are silent on how to determine when a shot has finished in the case of a hanging ball, but I don't know what happened in the years between. Snooker just says "momentarily" as to how long you have to wait. Elsewhere, a "moment" has been variously defined as between 1.5 and 90 seconds.

If a ball stops on the brink, just start counting the seconds out loud. Among other things, this warns the next shooter to wait until the end of the five seconds -- to shoot before would technically be a foul.

 

[av84fun]

Where the player is or is not has no bearing on the "hanging ball" situation. You are not permitted to linger over the table for half an hour hoping your hung nine ball will drop, nor is it helpful to run from the table if the cue ball hangs on the brink.

The problem is to determine when a shot has finished. Normally it is when the balls have come to rest. If a ball is on the brink, you have to decide how long to wait. At one point the time was three seconds. Pat Fleming suggested five, and that's what went into the pro 9-ball rules in 1987 and appears in the current World Standardized Rules. I see that the 1914 rules are silent on how to determine when a shot has finished in the case of a hanging ball, but I don't know what happened in the years between. Snooker just says "momentarily" as to how long you have to wait. Elsewhere, a "moment" has been variously defined as between 1.5 and 90 seconds.

If a ball stops on the brink, just start counting the seconds out loud. Among other things, this warns the next shooter to wait until the end of the five seconds -- to shoot before would technically be a foul.

I've actually done that in the case of a hanging CB...on my shot. But never the 9 Ball, for obvious reasons.

But if a 9 hangs on my opponent's shot, I would not count either...preferring instead to knock over waitresses and/or small children trying to get to the table and shoot!!!

(-: