S.A.M. Anyone use it? Does it really work?

scottycoyote said:
hey youre the one who started the woofing for money, and your bet was bob would give him the 7 and youd back bob, and randy said he would take the bet.......now you want to bring in one of the top philipinos to play him instead......looks to me like youre the one who's chicken$hitting out now that he called your bluff.

ScottyCoyote, I think that CueTechasaurus clarified himself when he said he thought BobJ could give Randy the 7 ball IN POOL KNOWLEDGE. I don't think he mentioned anything about gambling at pool but I could be mistaken. CT was taking up for poor old Bob and thought he was being talked down to by Randy but I don't think that was the case. Besides, Bob may be getting old but he can still peck on that keyboard pretty darn good. :D :D

Anyways, I doubt that Bob or Randy would want to get down in the pig pen and roll around with anyone let alone each other. That doesn't appear to be something they enjoy or would enjoy.

JoeyA - likes anything to do with the field of green (mud-rolling, steam-rolling or solitary rolling.)
 
01rkclassic said:
13hrs without a miss would shatter Willie M's record of 526 balls easily,must have missed it when it happened!how many balls did he run?:confused:

I posted that and did not mean to infer that Hal was at the table for 13 consecutive hours. Hell, he's 80+ years old and can only stand for about 1/2 hour before having to sit down and take a load off.
What I was saying was that within that 13 hour period of time, every time he shot a ball it went in. No exaggeration but trust me, Mosconi's run is safe.

It was mostly me shooting and him instructing but I would venture to guess he shot around 100 balls.

Hope that clears it up,
Koop
 
scottycoyote said:
hey youre the one who started the woofing for money, and your bet was bob would give him the 7 and youd back bob, and randy said he would take the bet.......now you want to bring in one of the top philipinos to play him instead......looks to me like youre the one who's chicken$hitting out now that he called your bluff.

Read my post after that, genius. In fact, reread my post about the 7ball. I never said I'd back Bob against him with the 7, I said Bob could probably give randy the 7! It was a retort to randy telling bob to "come to school". I was saying that Bob doesn't need to go to school, he plays well and teaches well enough. Randy was the one who started the woofing, telling me to back bob giving up the 7. Lay off the crack for a little while, and learn to read while you're at it.
 
randyg said:
Are you back again?

I didn't realize Bob was Fillapino, Bob was the bet....right

I certainly don't play at that level, never have-never will.

Sounds like you opened your mouth and inserted your own foot. If you can't take the woofing, get out of the dog house.

I'm done....SPF=randyg

You're also a chump. You started the woofing, I just elevated it a little. You never have and never will play at the level of getting the 5 out? You must not practice what you teach. Or maybe you do practice what you teach, and it's your teaching that is worth a big old pile of horseshit. Want to know why? Because your inflated ego gets in the way of everything you say and do. Bye bye, chump.
 
Koop said:
I posted that and did not mean to infer that Hal was at the table for 13 consecutive hours. Hell, he's 80+ years old and can only stand for about 1/2 hour before having to sit down and take a load off.
What I was saying was that within that 13 hour period of time, every time he shot a ball it went in. No exaggeration but trust me, Mosconi's run is safe.

It was mostly me shooting and him instructing but I would venture to guess he shot around 100 balls.

Hope that clears it up,
Koop
You are a lucky man, I'd do anything to take lessons from Hal.
 
thrasher789 said:
Ironically I think you are argueing again'st aiming systems in this thread (though I may be wrong, I can't tell) but you go on to talk about him gambling with filipino's while a majority of them actually do use one of Hal's systems.

Quite awhile ago a filipino player (I'm talking in the 70's or 80's) came to america and learned from Houle, he took his knowledge back to the Philipens and the system is fairly commonly used by filipino players who grew up around other players who used and taught it.

I call bullshit. You are going to have to prove that. Name some top Filipino players that use his systems.
 
Haha I swear I'm not pulling all this out my ass guys c'mon. Marlon uses it, Fransisco and Efren know it and have used it, I assure you Orcollo and Alcano do to. If you ever see a player address the ball and put the cue tip down for a brief second next to the cueball and then make a shift you know they are using one of Hal's cooler systems, I've seen many of them do it and that is what they are doing.
 
thrasher789 said:
Haha I swear I'm not pulling all this out my ass guys c'mon. Marlon uses it, Fransisco and Efren know it and have used it, I assure you Orcollo and Alcano do to. If you ever see a player address the ball and put the cue tip down for a brief second next to the cueball and then make a shift you know they are using one of Hal's cooler systems, I've seen many of them do it and that is what they are doing.

Don't recall anyone but Bustamante doing something like that with their tip. I will ask a friend who knows just about everything these guys do, about what you mentioned. He was just in the Phillipines for a few months, training with every single one of the people you mentioned.

I've studied these players tremendously. All of them address the cueball where they are going to hit it (with the exception of Andam and Bustamante), and shoot straight thru it, even with the wavy strokes some of them have. Marlon doesn't do anything like that. Neither does Orcullo or Alcano. Efren doesn't either. Bustamante does something similar to what you describe, but it's a consistent way of correcting his alignment on every shot. These guys do nothing but play pool, do you really think they use aiming systems? After hitting balls nonstop for decade after decade, it would make sense that they just know where to hit the object ball, and don't need a system to show them. Aside from that, the Filipinos use sidespin on just about every shot. I think using Hal's systems would complicate things a bit too much for them, when they realized a long time ago that straight cueing and good alignment is all you need to send to the cueball to the spot you are aiming at. Most amatuers know where to hit the object ball....this is funny stuff.....the Filipinos use Hal's systems....yeah. LOL
 
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cuetechasaurus said:
Don't recall anyone but Bustamante doing something like that with their tip. I will ask a friend who knows just about everything these guys do, about what you mentioned. He was just in the Phillipines for a few months, training with every single one of the people you mentioned.

I've studied these players tremendously. All of them address the cueball where they are going to hit it (with the exception of Andam and Bustamante), and shoot straight thru it, even with the wavy strokes some of them have. Marlon doesn't do anything like that. Neither does Orcullo or Alcano. Efren doesn't either. Bustamante does something similar to what you describe, but it's a consistent way of correcting his alignment on every shot. These guys do nothing but play pool, do you really think they use aiming systems? After hitting balls nonstop for decade after decade, it would make sense that they just know where to hit the object ball, and don't need a system to show them. Most amatuers know where to hit the object ball....this is funny stuff.....the Filipinos use Hal's systems....yeah. LOL
I am almost positive all the players I mentioned know it and have at one point or another used it, if not that's ok. I'm not here to get into a flame war with you but here are a couple points: first off if you were on a proffesional level and knew of such a system as the one described and could use it perfectly (these guys play all day, you know they ahve this down to a key) wouldn't you sometimes use it? Of course you wouuld, and they do. That said you are right, most players do know where to hit a shot, so no they do not necessarily have to use it on every single shot.


Moreover the system can be learned up in your head so you can skip putting your tip down and the like, though I think it's easier to go through all the steps physically, but regardless most pro's who use it have the first two steps mentally. Why is this so hard to understand or accept? It's an incredibly powerful tool if used correctly.

If you are still skeptical (which you will be I assume:() take measures to find someone who knows the system, I don't know how you would go about this and your only choice might be to wait for a video release but it does work, and it is used.

edit: Don't hold me to the alcano/orcollo statement becuase that was a big assumption and I apologize BUT I would be very skeptical to hear they don't know anything about it. On the flip side ask your freind about Parica, I think I've heard he used to use it at one point.
 
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As for Efren, I'm not certain what he uses, but he definitely uses something that looks like one of Hal's systems. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but there is a video somewhere on here that clearly shows Efren line up off center and pivot back to shoot.
I can't remember the name of the thread but it's the video that shows him use his hand as an extender bridge. Everyone, including me, marveled at how he pulled that off but no one noticed how he aimed the shot. I think Colin may have posted it but I can't be sure and don't feel like digging it up.
Looked EXACTLY like Hal's system, but again, I could be wrong.
 
Koop said:
As for Efren, I'm not certain what he uses, but he definitely uses something that looks like one of Hal's systems. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but there is a video somewhere on here that clearly shows Efren line up off center and pivot back to shoot.
I can't remember the name of the thread but it's the video that shows him use his hand as an extender bridge. Everyone, including me, marveled at how he pulled that off but no one noticed how he aimed the shot. I think Colin may have posted it but I can't be sure and don't feel like digging it up.
Looked EXACTLY like Hal's system, but again, I could be wrong.

You're not, the instucter that taught me the 'holy grail' system told me that efren and most of that era of filipino players know and employ the system either partly or as a whole from time to time and some do it on almost every shot; its a great system if you can get used to it.
 
I am not familiar with the SAM method other than I hear it's a derivative of some systems that Hal Houle teaches. Okay now that I am caught up on the thread. :-)

I have been in some huge arguments about aiming systems over the years - THANKS TO HAL. Before he showed up one night in Denver I was blissfully unaware that there was any other way to aim other than ghostball/contact point. Sure, I was quite frustrated to miss shots that I thought were dead on. I couldn't understand why I had trouble with certain shots at different speeds.

Then this guy shows up and starts talking about lining up these two lines, and aim your tip at the quarter of the ball on the left side opposite the pocket (exaggeration) and just trust it even though it feels wrong. What happens.... I start pocketing everything. I am freaking out over this. 18 years in pool and someone is showing me something that I have never come across and IT WORKS.

I used to be a springboard diver and one of the things my coach used to say was, "if it feels wrong then it's probably right". He would say this when we were learning the techniques and frequently he was right. Sometimes you need to go against the instincts you have developed in order to retrain them to a higher level.

Hal's systems feel wrong and counterintuitive. But after a little while I found myself just stepping into the shot line automatically. No matter what the shot is. In a split second I have processed the location of the pocket, the object ball and the cueball, and decided where the cueball needs to go. So I just step in on the correct line and let it go.

Which brings me to my personal unifying theory of all the aiming systems/methods that exist. They all serve the purpose of getting the shooter into the correct position to make the shot. And for any shot there is only one position that is correct to make the ball with a few degrees margin on either side of perfect alignment.

To a lot of us who have grown up with ghost ball/contact point and adjusting for swerve/squirt, portional ball/mutiple line systems combined with backhand english is quite foreign.

I personally believe that Robert Byrne and those who emulate him are partly to blame for the ghost ball/contact point method's popularity. As Bob Jewett has said it's so simple that it's hard to NOT be able to describe it easily in print. The problem though is that it's too simple to be properly effective because it doesn't truly fix alignment. It's possible to THINK you are lined up and actually be off by enough to just miss the pocket. Add in the whole thing with adjusting for squirt/swerve/deflection and it really becomes complicated.

Some of the other aiming systems are not hard to write about. I don't put Hal's systems on here because he asked me not to. Others have done so with and without Hal's blessing. Hal himself has put some online at RSB. Fred Agnir has written some about it.

And of course there are plenty of instructors who are now teaching variations of ball to ball aiming systems and methods. All with the idea of getting the player trained to line up on the correct aiming line.

For myself. I am convinced every time I play on tables with 4" pockets and I am making the shots split the pocket. I don't dread the long uptable shots anymore, or any shot for that matter. Did I go from a B player to a AA player because of the aiming system? No, but I did get at least a ball better. I still have a lot of other things wrong with my game that will never be corrected at this point like stroking technique, body english, attitude AND still sometimes trust in the system. Because I didn't learn this in my formative years I don't always trust it and tend to go back to the old way of picking out a contact point and trying to stay fixed on it.

When I do that I miss almost every time.

Do I use SAM? No. Do I use similar methods? Yes I do and with great personal success.

Lastly, whether the pros, any pros use these systems is in question. I can't say for sure that so and so uses such and such. I can tell you that since learning of these systems I have queried a lot of my pro friends as to how they aim and a lot of them have alluded to various methods that are quite similar to many of the systems out there. Rodney Morris in particular has told me that in Hawaii he was taught to aim at portions of the ball at the beginning but that after a while it just becomes automatic.

And that's my 2cts on aiming. I am off to play in a tournament, bye.
 
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cuetechasaurus said:
Read my post after that, genius. In fact, reread my post about the 7ball. I never said I'd back Bob against him with the 7, I said Bob could probably give randy the 7! It was a retort to randy telling bob to "come to school". I was saying that Bob doesn't need to go to school, he plays well and teaches well enough. Randy was the one who started the woofing, telling me to back bob giving up the 7. Lay off the crack for a little while, and learn to read while you're at it.

yeah put down the bottle for a minute bozo and maybe your reading comprehension will go up too. Last thing you said was "i wouldnt be surprised if you really did need the 7". Randy steps up and said, "well if you want to back bob with the 7, I'm ready to play", and then you backpeddle and start trying to bring in someone else to play. I saw where you said the "7 in knowledge" but then you took it a step further, you must have forgotten some of your post.....i dont blame you i forget your posts too.

And i think randy was telling bob to come to school, in the sense that all the bca instructors attend each other's schools.....it wasnt an insult, you just took it that way cuz you seem to be a hothead and possibly a moron
have a nice day
 
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dabarbr said:
You're right. Just shoot the damn thing into the hole.

That's all.

No matter what aiming system you use, it is not going to do more than tell you how to make the ball...which you should know anyway. Who the hell cares? 11 pages of garbage, virtually no posts of anything worth reading...
 
Sorry

I am really sorry to hear that everyone is ragging on Randy, and Scott.

I guess like everything there is always going to be critisizm and skeptics.

You know, I don't really care who does and doesn't use this system. Everyone has their own beliefs. I just know this system is easy to use, and easy for people to pick up, and it does work. Once the system is in tact and used in your game, you will see how it helps with banks, combos, etc.

Everyone that has seen me play in the last 6 months says I have improved my game dramatically. And I attribute it to two things I learned at Randy's school. One is my stroke, and the other is SAM. I have been playing for 10 years, and this was one of the best tools I took away from his school. In fact everyone I have taught it to, seems to like it too, and they can't believe how easy it makes bank shots, and long shots.

If you all don't believe it and don't want to use it, then don't. I am sure that it won't hurt anyone's feelings in here.

However, I think it is wrong for you all to be dogging on Randy and any other instructor in here. They just try to help us all in this sport that we love. If you ever met Randy in person you would see that he has a passion for this game, and he truely wants to see everyone succeed in it. So I pitty anyone that can't see his help is truely sincere. I personally don't care if Randy could sink one ball, or 100 balls in a row. I know his system works, and I know he is an excellant teacher. For all of you that don't know him, you should just lay off, cause he has one hell of a resume.

In fact one of his students teaches almost the same things as him, and from what I heard charges about 3 times more for it. And yes she is one of the most famous woman players out there.

Sorry everyone is dogging you Randy, you still got my vote, and I am constantly trying to send people up your way.
 
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For fractional ball aimers, how would you respond to Dr. Dave's illustration of a cut shot in between a 1/4 and 1/2 ball hit. His point is that you are just using them as reference aims, and you have to make an adjustment. This is allegedly Hal Houle's system, although as I recall Houle denies this is an accurate representation

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Source: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/index.html (TP A.11)
 
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