Sailor Cue & Burton Spain

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RakmUp

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I recently read in the Blue Book that Sailor had some cues made with Burton Spain blanks. Is there any way to determine if the cue I have was made with these blanks. It is six pointed 3 long and 3 short (cut in) with no veneers.
It is my playing cue that I would never part with but it makes me curious.

Thanks for any help.

Chuck
 
RakmUp said:
I recently read in the Blue Book that Sailor had some cues made with Burton Spain blanks. Is there any way to determine if the cue I have was made with these blanks. It is six pointed 3 long and 3 short (cut in) with no veneers.
It is my playing cue that I would never part with but it makes me curious.

Thanks for any help.

Chuck
Click to expand...
Burton did make the first 3 high 3 low blanks, so it could be possible. Joel Hercek may have some insight, as to if it is a Spain blank.

Tracy
 
Easy answer here-

Sailor CAN'T cut points. I've seen his shop, and there's no milling equipment to be found. If your cue has points and was built by Frank, then it is more likely than not one of Spain's forearms. If I recall correctly, these are somewhat rare, and more desireable. IF you are interested in selling, I know several people in the Chicago area that collect Sailor cues.
 
cheese_ball said:
Easy answer here-

Sailor CAN'T cut points. I've seen his shop, and there's no milling equipment to be found. If your cue has points and was built by Frank, then it is more likely than not one of Spain's forearms. If I recall correctly, these are somewhat rare, and more desireable. IF you are interested in selling, I know several people in the Chicago area that collect Sailor cues.
Click to expand...

Why do you need a milling machine to cut points?? I cut mine on one of my lathes.
 
I've enver seen a pointed cue of Sailor's with points UNLESS it had one of Spain's blanks. BTW... how do you cut your points precisely on a lathe without a cnc??? I'm always down to learn... please educate me!

Last time I was in his shop, he just had an old Logan (I think it was a logan... I may be mistaken) with a couple taper bars...
 
cheese_ball said:
I've enver seen a pointed cue of Sailor's with points UNLESS it had one of Spain's blanks. BTW... how do you cut your points precisely on a lathe without a cnc??? I'm always down to learn... please educate me!

Last time I was in his shop, he just had an old Logan (I think it was a logan... I may be mistaken) with a couple taper bars...
Click to expand...

I place the blank in the lathe. Set my taper bar to the desired cut. Decide how many points I want. Using the Index head, I manually move the cross slide (with a 90 cutter) to make the cut. Change the Index head, make another cut, and so on.
 
Mase said:
I place the blank in the lathe. Set my taper bar to the desired cut. Decide how many points I want. Using the Index head, I manually move the cross slide (with a 90 cutter) to make the cut. Change the Index head, make another cut, and so on.
Click to expand...

I used a lathe to cut my points for about twelve years before getting a mill and setting it up. At first I mounted a plate below my rear chuck and when needed I would mount an indexer on this plate and chuck its nose into my rear chuck. This worked pretty good but I couldn't make veneered points into my butt collars as I couldnt get enough of an angle. I then made a jig up with an indexer on one end and a tailstock on the other that would pivot to any angle I wanted. I would mount this to my lathe bed and then used a tool post grinder with a 90 degree bit to cut the points at any angle I preferred.
I now have a jig made up that fits in my mill vise. My vise has a degree ring on it and I just mount the jig into the vise and set the degrees that I have worked out for differant numbers of points and lengths.
What makes the mill easier to use than the lathe is the type of cutter I can use. With the tool post cutter the largest bit I could locate was 3/4" so the prongs had to be pretty close to final size or the cuts wouldn't be deep enough on the final cue size. With the mill I use a 1.5" shaper cutter so that I can put in any prong I have, no matter what diameter and cut my valleys for the points. By having the prongs thicker when cutting there is much less vibration making smoother cuts.
Dick
 
RakmUp said:
I recently read in the Blue Book that Sailor had some cues made with Burton Spain blanks. Is there any way to determine if the cue I have was made with these blanks. It is six pointed 3 long and 3 short (cut in) with no veneers.
It is my playing cue that I would never part with but it makes me curious.

Thanks for any help.

Chuck
Click to expand...

Burton Spain built several blanks for Frank Stellman BKA "Sailor". After Burton Spain Passed, I continued to build blanks for Burt's customers for a couple of years, including Sailor. A few months after I stopped making blanks for other cuemakers, Sailor stopped by my shop with a Freshly Baked Danish Kringle from a great bakery in Racine Wisconsin. He actually bribed me with the pastry and I'm ashamed to say it worked. He left the shop with a few blanks. He would come around from time to time with Kringle in hand and walk off with some more blanks that I would sell him. I had to put my foot down and tell Frank I could no longer sell him any more blanks. Not just because I deicide I couldn't supply any more cuemakers with blanks, I also was getting to fat eating those damn Kringles. If you could supply a photo of the cue, I can tell you if it's Burt's blank.

Joel Hercek
 
Thanks guys, Like I said, this is my playing cue. It feels like an extension of my right arm so I am not interested in selling. I do collect some cues though and find it interesting that the main cue I play with could be a collector item.
I have 3 original shafts for it as well.
Here are some pics.....

Thanks again,

Chuck
 

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RakmUp said:
Thanks guys, Like I said, this is my playing cue. It feels like an extension of my right arm so I am not interested in selling. I do collect some cues though and find it interesting that the main cue I play with could be a collector item.
I have 3 original shafts for it as well.
Here are some pics.....

Thanks again,

Chuck
Click to expand...

Nice looking Sailor cue, however it is not a Burton Spain blank.

Joel Hercek
 
qmakr said:
Nice looking Sailor cue, however it is not a Burton Spain blank.

Joel Hercek
Click to expand...

Does this mean it is Hercek blank? This was made for me in or around 1981.
Actually this is a releif, I am happy with it being my player and not some thing with real collector value.

Thanks Joel.
 
qmakr said:
Burton Spain built several blanks for Frank Stellman BKA "Sailor". After Burton Spain Passed, I continued to build blanks for Burt's customers for a couple of years, including Sailor. A few months after I stopped making blanks for other cuemakers, Sailor stopped by my shop with a Freshly Baked Danish Kringle from a great bakery in Racine Wisconsin. He actually bribed me with the pastry and I'm ashamed to say it worked. He left the shop with a few blanks. He would come around from time to time with Kringle in hand and walk off with some more blanks that I would sell him. I had to put my foot down and tell Frank I could no longer sell him any more blanks. Not just because I deicide I couldn't supply any more cuemakers with blanks, I also was getting to fat eating those damn Kringles. If you could supply a photo of the cue, I can tell you if it's Burt's blank.

Joel Hercek
Click to expand...


Those Kringles are Great, we use them to bribe our clients at christmas from the same bakery.
 
RakmUp said:
The Sailor Flair Butt Plate
Click to expand...

Saw one of thise Yesterday in Mesa AZ at a Tournment. Real pretty Cue, is the Builder Still Alive, and Building ?
 
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Saw one of thise Yesterday in Mesa AZ at a Tournment. Real pretty Cue, is the Builder Still Alive, and Building ?
Click to expand...

I saw him a week ago in Chicago. He brought me and John Lavin of Red Shoes a Kringle. I've taken some lessons from him and he was in town for a straight pool tournament at Pockets. He made me a cue in early 2005, but hasn't been doing much lately. He had cataract surgery last fall and then he had a detached retina and the corrective surgery has not been completely successful. He just sees blurs out of the one eye, but is hopeful it will get better.

I don't believe he's doing much cue making lately. A guy at my billiard club has a project he's been working on for a while. I had asked him to make me another and he said he'll see about it. I think he's putting on a 14.1 torunament in Wisconsin in early December and one of the prizes was going to be a Sailor cue.
 
qmakr said:
...He actually bribed me with the pastry and I'm ashamed to say it worked...I had to put my foot down and tell Frank I could no longer sell him any more blanks...I also was getting to fat ...
Joel Hercek
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing that story! Looks like we now know Mr. Hercek's kryptonite!!
 
Very interesting. My Dad has known Sailor since WW II and he has 3 Sailor cues made in the early to mid 1970's (I own 2 Sailors as well that I played with until recently when I started building my own cues). Sailor still builds some cues but he has slowed down. I love the 2 cues that I have and they are both very pretty cues made with beautiful curly maple forearms. Sailor has made some very nice cues and I like the fact that he doesn't go overboard with inlays and complexity. There is elegance in simplicity and some of his cues are really nice. It's also neat that he has the "flared" butt cap which makes his cues stand out from the ordinary. I live in Racine and I've seen lots of his cues but very few with points. The cues that I have seen with points are generally "house-cue" style 4-pointers typically Rosewood into plain Maple. Sailor does have what appers to be a milling machine that appears to have been collecting dust for some time and I don't know if he cuts points or not. The 2 cues I have (the newest one is about 10 years old) both feature some simple but very nice multiple veneer into slot inlay work that must have been done with a milling machine or indexing lathe with a toolpost grinder/router. I've been in his shop and seen his equipment many times, however, it was before I got interested in making cues as a hobby so I never paid all that much attention. I haven't gone to see him since I started experimenting with cue making and I don't know how he would feel about me going in there now. Sailor is an unusual guy with a varied reputation but he has always been very nice to me and the cue work he has done for me over the years has always been done promptly and done well. He is a fascinating gentleman to talk to as well and has a wealth of knowledge about the game and the people who played it over the years. Sailor is truly one of a kind I can safely say that. I was too young to have ever seen him play in his prime but I understand he was a fantastic 14.1 player.

Anyway, back to the topic, one of my Dad's cues is the only Sailor cue I have ever seen with points having multiple veneers. If I think of it I'll get a picture of the cue and post it. The splice is 4 points with probably rosewood into plain maple and I believe 3 veneers. I have never seen another Sailor like it and I would assume he used some type of blank, maybe a Spain blank who knows. I'll try to get a picture up here so someone a lot more knowledgeable than me can maybe identify the blank.
 
Zagiflyer said:
Very interesting. My Dad has known Sailor since WW II and he has 3 Sailor cues made in the early to mid 1970's (I own 2 Sailors as well that I played with until recently when I started building my own cues). Sailor still builds some cues but he has slowed down. I love the 2 cues that I have and they are both very pretty cues made with beautiful curly maple forearms. Sailor has made some very nice cues and I like the fact that he doesn't go overboard with inlays and complexity. There is elegance in simplicity and some of his cues are really nice. It's also neat that he has the "flared" butt cap which makes his cues stand out from the ordinary. I live in Racine and I've seen lots of his cues but very few with points. The cues that I have seen with points are generally "house-cue" style 4-pointers typically Rosewood into plain Maple. Sailor does have what appers to be a milling machine that appears to have been collecting dust for some time and I don't know if he cuts points or not. The 2 cues I have (the newest one is about 10 years old) both feature some simple but very nice multiple veneer into slot inlay work that must have been done with a milling machine or indexing lathe with a toolpost grinder/router. I've been in his shop and seen his equipment many times, however, it was before I got interested in making cues as a hobby so I never paid all that much attention. I haven't gone to see him since I started experimenting with cue making and I don't know how he would feel about me going in there now. Sailor is an unusual guy with a varied reputation but he has always been very nice to me and the cue work he has done for me over the years has always been done promptly and done well. He is a fascinating gentleman to talk to as well and has a wealth of knowledge about the game and the people who played it over the years. Sailor is truly one of a kind I can safely say that. I was too young to have ever seen him play in his prime but I understand he was a fantastic 14.1 player.

Anyway, back to the topic, one of my Dad's cues is the only Sailor cue I have ever seen with points having multiple veneers. If I think of it I'll get a picture of the cue and post it. The splice is 4 points with probably rosewood into plain maple and I believe 3 veneers. I have never seen another Sailor like it and I would assume he used some type of blank, maybe a Spain blank who knows. I'll try to get a picture up here so someone a lot more knowledgeable than me can maybe identify the blank.
Click to expand...

Ken??

Still playing 14.1? Did you get your pool table in?

Making many cues?

I think there's gonna be another 14.1 tourney in Greyslake next month. You and your dad ought to get in it. Sailor has come down to Pockets twice and brought some Wisconsin guys with to play in some tournaments. He's putting on a 14.1 at Boomers for A players December 10 and 11.

Dennis
 
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