Samsara Break Tip Fail - what did I do wrong?

I've had 2 samsaras pop off: one from an OB Break shaft, the other from a BK2 shaft. The tips put on by different installers. One was the result of a terrible miscue on the break, the other was a decent break, but I did hit it off-center. The second was also still the full-size tip and put on at a tournament in a hurry, at least that's the excuse I'm using here.

I really like(d) the tip much more than any phenolic, but I can't keep a tip on to save my life. :/ Back to using the BK2 shaft with a Sumo break tip (since I think the OB Break shaft was damanged during the last fly-off).
 
swest,
well, through all this abuse, multiple installs, multiple shapings, mulitple burnishings....luckily this has shown no signs at all of delaminating

stljohnny,
I can definitely see how a tip that hasn't been cut down to size would easily pop off. Hit just slightly off center will right away try to make whatever is hanging off the edge pivot over it.

I've yet to try a phenolic tip, I was giving this one a go first so I wouldn't have to worry about possible league or house restrictions against phenolic.
I agree though, when it worked, it worked very nicely


Fingers crossed that this last attempt will keep it working longer this time!
 
Hi mate.

I had the same problem with my break cue ( and tip: Icebreaker), and playing cue (tip: kamui soft black). I using Gorilla superglue

My routine is always the same, I was fallowing every single step of my routine. But I end up in deep shit, tip from my break cue I was applying 7 time or so, and playing tip 3 time ( both cases been appearing in same time).

I thought then, I didn't sand tip or ferrule enought, then I didn't glue it straight, etc. ... But EVERYTHING was JUST PERFECT as always..
And then, I suddenly realise the issue was in glue !!!! I had it for like 11 months, it was always nicely closed, and it was half way full.

But I thought, then it is old and is not sticking so well like before, so I bought new one, and since that time both tips didn't fell of any more ;))))))
 
Polyurethane glues for high-impact tips

kavik79 said:
swest,
well, through all this abuse, multiple installs, multiple shapings, mulitple burnishings....luckily this has shown no signs at all of delaminating

stljohnny,
I can definitely see how a tip that hasn't been cut down to size would easily pop off. Hit just slightly off center will right away try to make whatever is hanging off the edge pivot over it.

I've yet to try a phenolic tip, I was giving this one a go first so I wouldn't have to worry about possible league or house restrictions against phenolic.
I agree though, when it worked, it worked very nicely


Fingers crossed that this last attempt will keep it working longer this time!
Click to expand...

Kavik79:

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, too. Good job.

One thing I want to share, though, is that cyanoacrylate glue is NOT shatter-proof. In fact, the material, when dry, breaks and cracks. It's very brittle.

Try this: put a couple drops of it on waxpaper to form a little pool, and allow it to dry that way, without disturbing the pooled shape. When it's finally dry, peel the resulting "button" off from the wax paper. Now bend that button between your fingers -- it should snap in half easily.

I had the same issue you did -- a Samsara flying off repeatedly, even though the breakshot was a pure centerball hit -- and what finally fixed the issue was to change the glue.

In my case, I used a polyurethane glue, like Gorilla Glue or the even better Elmer's product ("better" meaning it doesn't harden inside the bottle like Gorilla Glue does). What's cool about this glue, is that; 1.) you use plain water as the catalyst to start the cure process, and 2.) it expands as it cures, following and filling pores (CA glue, by contrast, shrinks as it cures). Yes, you'll need to apply constant downwards pressure to the tip as it cures (because the glue will "want" to push the tip away from the ferrule). And yes, it does bleed to the outside of the bond, forming a thick bead around the perimeter of the tip where it meets the phenolic, but it's easily shaved down flat.

The best thing is that polyurethane glue is flexible after it cures, and is extremely resilient to impacts. You can do the same waxpaper test with polyurethane glue, and the resulting dried pool forms a "button" that won't break when you flex it.

Caveats? The polyurethane glue needs at least 12 hours to fully cure.

However, the Samsara on my break cue has been abused since 2010 (I even lend it to people), and the tip has never come off since.

Hope this helps for the future.
-Sean
 
Sean, thanks for sharing your experiences. I know this stuff isn't shatter proof, but i had so many people tell me it's worked for them, i figured I'd give it one more try before switching to another glue or an epoxy.
This is a specific gel super glue that's supposed to be more resistant to impacts and less fragile then the regular stuff.....guess I'll find out throughout the rest of this week.
 
Also try not to put too much pressure squeezing the tip and ferrule together. I think sometimes if there is no tackiness and too much pressure is applied you can squeeze glue out leaving a glueless area. Also with the ten minutes dry time, you might have to be careful burnishing it since it really won't be fully cured. I have put tips on that look good that I noticed a tiny separation after burnishing in a lathe. I do a lot of the other things suggested as well like taking a lot of the height off the tip. Not sure if it does make any difference but a lower tip might survive some type of weakness in the install where the high tip may torque it enough to pop off quick.
 
Montana Mike said:
Also try not to put too much pressure squeezing the tip and ferrule together. I think sometimes if there is no tackiness and too much pressure is applied you can squeeze glue out leaving a glueless area. Also with the ten minutes dry time, you might have to be careful burnishing it since it really won't be fully cured. I have put tips on that look good that I noticed a tiny separation after burnishing in a lathe. I do a lot of the other things suggested as well like taking a lot of the height off the tip. Not sure if it does make any difference but a lower tip might survive some type of weakness in the install where the high tip may torque it enough to pop off quick.
Click to expand...

No worries there. I used one of the rubber band clamps, not TOO much pressure. And this time it sat overnight before doing any of the real work on it :grin:
 
i break with a players cue i bought used for 20 bucks. about a year and half or two years ago i had steve lomax put a samsara break tip on. it's still on never came off and only delaminated once which was my fault.
i think if they are prepped right, installed properly, and manitained well they can work very well. i love mine and about at the point where it needs to be replaced. i am going to use the same tip, same guy and just take better care of it and hopefully get another long run out of it.
 
jrt30004 said:
i break with a players cue i bought used for 20 bucks. about a year and half or two years ago i had steve lomax put a samsara break tip on. it's still on never came off and only delaminated once which was my fault.
i think if they are prepped right, installed properly, and manitained well they can work very well. i love mine and about at the point where it needs to be replaced. i am going to use the same tip, same guy and just take better care of it and hopefully get another long run out of it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've gone back and forth and back and forth about buying a "real" break cue. But really, this is a solid butt, the shaft I put on it is quite stiff, it has a 13mm tip (well, maybe 12.75 now, I haven't measured since I re-installed) and has a long taper.......I'm not sure that there's really any reason at this point to buy another one.
And as a bonus, for sentimental reasons, I'm glad to still have a use for it. I've had it for about 17 years. I owned one super cheap crappy stick for a short time before this one, but for all intents and purposes, this is the stick I really learned to shoot with

The only thing I'd change....with the tips I've gotten recently on snapping my wrist during the break, a wrapless cue might be nicer. But, it does have a couple gouges in the finish and all the ring work can be felt through the finish now, so I'm sort of debating about throwing a coat of shellac over the whole thing, wrap and all...Meucci style lol



At any rate, I got out for a couple hours tonight. Put the tip through about 20 breaks, including one horrific miscue that I was sure was going to be the end of it.
Happy to report that the tip looks and sounds the same on the last break as it did on the first. Here's hoping it stays that way for a good long time :thumbup:

Thanks again to everyone who provided tips here (yep, pun intended lol)
 
Last edited:
Hustlin-Felice said:
Hi mate.

I had the same problem with my break cue ( and tip: Icebreaker), and playing cue (tip: kamui soft black). I using Gorilla superglue

My routine is always the same, I was fallowing every single step of my routine. But I end up in deep shit, tip from my break cue I was applying 7 time or so, and playing tip 3 time ( both cases been appearing in same time).

I thought then, I didn't sand tip or ferrule enought, then I didn't glue it straight, etc. ... But EVERYTHING was JUST PERFECT as always..
And then, I suddenly realise the issue was in glue !!!! I had it for like 11 months, it was always nicely closed, and it was half way full.

But I thought, then it is old and is not sticking so well like before, so I bought new one, and since that time both tips didn't fell of any more ;))))))
Click to expand...

Same......
 
On the first attempt possibly the pores of the tip absorbed most of the glue, I would use glue on both surfaces and apply a bit of extra pressure to bring them together.
 
Petros Andrikop said:
On the first attempt possibly the pores of the tip absorbed most of the glue, I would use glue on both surfaces and apply a bit of extra pressure to bring them together.
Click to expand...

I think that was part of it, yes. The advice I followed to address that issue was to start by putting a thin layer of glue on the tip and allowing it to dry by itself, this gave me a surface to glue that the rest of the glue wouldn't soak through.

As far as I know, you never want to apply super glue to both halves of anything you're gluing together
 
I've only installed two of them. The one I put on my own break cue only came off when I had to use a heat gun to remove the ferrule.

The other one was on a customer's Joss,and it's been on for a year with no issues.

I've been using the Loctite Professional for 3 years now,and the only issue I've had was on a customer's J+J break/jump with a cheesy ferrule.

I fixed that by replacing the ferrule,no charge.

One of those failures was caused by the cue getting knocked over and slapping concrete,the customer paid me for that one.

The other 2 were due to bad miscues while breaking,which I usually don't warranty against but 2 tip failures on same cue in a couple weeks in a small town is enough to cause bullshit,so I just changed it.

I did that to avoid the bullshit and because I KNEW the failure wasn't due to faulty install.

Other than this and a customer that repeatedly left his cue in a hot car,I've had no other failures for over 10 years that I didn't catch before it left my hands,and those were all due to bad glue.

The Loctite I've been using is really good about not going bad before I use the whole bottle. I had one bottle last me 10 months,and I tossed it because the tip of the bottle went bad,not the glue itself. Tommy D.
 
so, I guess the question is.....how can you tell if the glue is old and no good before you attach it to a $20 tip?

honestly, I always just figured if the glue isn't hard then it must still be good lol
 
If the glue is getting old,it will take longer for the glue to "set" than it normally does,if it sets at all.

Some people will be much better off with a slower setting (thicker or gel type) glue to start with,the Loctite I use sets faster than anything I've ever seen except Satellite City Hot Stuff,which is water-thin.

I base my statements on using the same stuff until you develop a feel for it.

If what you've been using locks the tip down usually within a few seconds of finger pressure,and all of a sudden it takes 30 seconds,or it doesn't set at all,then you have a problem. Tommy D.
 
kavik79 said:
so, I guess the question is.....how can you tell if the glue is old and no good before you attach it to a $20 tip?

honestly, I always just figured if the glue isn't hard then it must still be good lol
Click to expand...

Kavik79:

Can't speak for CA glue, other than I'm of the same impression you are -- if the glue hasn't hardened inside the tube, it's "still good" (whether that's a faulty premise or not, I'm not sure).

But I can say that polyurethane glue needs moisture as the catalyst to harden. In fact, the instructions on the bottle say to actually WET the parts with water before applying the glue. Polyurethane glue tends to follow water, and will "wick into" any surfaces that are wet.

Some folks don't know about the wetting part -- they think you can just apply the glue and "let it dry." The issue is that with newer polyurethane glue, you may be able to "get away with" the moisture in the air being enough of a catalyst for the glue to set. Older glue needs a bit of help, and you need to follow the instructions by applying the recommended amount of water.

"Use water with glue?!?" some people exclaim in surprise. Yep, polyurethane glues are formulated to react with water. Think of it as a two-part epoxy, and one of the parts is water. The good news is that the reaction is so complete, that any water applied to the parts is completely consumed by the glue. In fact, like I said, polyurethane glue "follows" water into crevices, pores, etc. Given the fact it also expands when curing, you have to keep the parts tightly clamped, otherwise the glue will push them apart as it cures.

Again, with newer polyurethane glue you can "get away with" the moisture in the air sometimes; other times (and with older glue) you need to wet the parts as the instructions recommend.

Hope that helps!
-Sean
 
kavik79 said:
Yeah, I've gone back and forth and back and forth about buying a "real" break cue. But really, this is a solid butt, the shaft I put on it is quite stiff, it has a 13mm tip (well, maybe 12.75 now, I haven't measured since I re-installed) and has a long taper.......I'm not sure that there's really any reason at this point to buy another one.
And as a bonus, for sentimental reasons, I'm glad to still have a use for it. I've had it for about 17 years. I owned one super cheap crappy stick for a short time before this one, but for all intents and purposes, this is the stick I really learned to shoot with

The only thing I'd change....with the tips I've gotten recently on snapping my wrist during the break, a wrapless cue might be nicer. But, it does have a couple gouges in the finish and all the ring work can be felt through the finish now, so I'm sort of debating about throwing a coat of shellac over the whole thing, wrap and all...Meucci style lol



At any rate, I got out for a couple hours tonight. Put the tip through about 20 breaks, including one horrific miscue that I was sure was going to be the end of it.
Happy to report that the tip looks and sounds the same on the last break as it did on the first. Here's hoping it stays that way for a good long time :thumbup:

Thanks again to everyone who provided tips here (yep, pun intended lol)
Click to expand...

the players i break with is wrapless. it is just solid black.
 
TommyD, thanks for the info on the CA dry time indicator :thumbup:

Sean, very interesting to know about the water/poly glue. I'll have to remember that if I ever try that kind
 
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