Samsara vs Phenolic

bdorman said:
I think it's physically impossible for a billiard ball to travel faster than the cue stick that hits it.

Momentum is just the transfer of stored energy. When the ball and cue tip are equal hardness the transfer is close to 100%. This is not the case for something like a golf ball where the ball is softer than the clubhead. In this case the ball compresses. The additional time it takes for the ball to compress allows more energy to be transfered and stored in the golf ball.

But a billiard ball is too hard to experience any meaningful compression. I guess if you used a hard-steel tip you might get some minor compression that results in a 100.001% transfer of energy. But you'd go through cue balls pretty quickly. :grin:

The weight of the cue stick should be immaterial. Perhaps a heavier cue stick will achieve energy transfer closer to 100% than a lightweight cue stick will. But it's not going to exceed 100%.
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I will have to respectfully disagree.

I believe that conservation of momentum and energy dictate that the cue-ball will travel faster than the cue-stick.

Maybe some real life factors alter things somewhat, but i can't imagine by enough to cause the ball that weighs 6oz to go slower than the cue than weighs 18-20 oz.
 
You are absolutely correct. The physics law mandates that cue ball have a end-of-impact speed between 0.75x and 1.5x the initial cue speed, for most practical COR properties of a cuetip will result in a cue speed more than 1.2x the initial cue speed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_collision

There is a formula for calculating cue speed.

roughly the cue weights 3 times of the cue ball. then the formula reduces to

Vb= (1+COR)*3/4

I guess what Renfro meant by the swing speed was "ideal/maxmium speed result from a certain swing(COR=100%)".

To get cue ball with a speed slower than the initial cue speed, you must be using a very very spongy cue, a COR less than 33%.

BJTyler said:
I will have to respectfully disagree.

I believe that conservation of momentum and energy dictate that the cue-ball will travel faster than the cue-stick.

Maybe some real life factors alter things somewhat, but i can't imagine by enough to cause the ball that weighs 6oz to go slower than the cue than weighs 18-20 oz.
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zpele said:
No offense was taken- I just do not agree with your assessment. I have played with both and have recorded results with both using the handy little break speed app. I usually break around 26-27mph with both tips but I found it much, much easier to control the cueball with the samsara.
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I guess one way to explain your experience is that the COR of the cuetip alone doesn't tell the whole story of the energy transfer efficency of the cue-ball impact. I guess the COR of the whole cue play some part too, so the 20% COR edge provides by phenolic tip is offsetted somewhat.


Look at it this way: a normal leather tip is softer (or shall we say it more physically correct, more flexiable) that other parts of the cue so it will be compressed the most during the impact, so its COR property dominates the whole cue's performance in perserving the energy. But a harder(stiffer) cue tip like a phenolic is not nessarily the most flexible part of the cue, so the COR of the softer parts contribute to a much lower COR than the tip itself. Thus explains you experience and the discrepency between it and Chris's numbers.
 
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I have a custom break cue with 2 shafts, one with a Samsara JB tip and other with a brown one piece ferrule. The phenolic one piece tip/ferrule breaks harder. Also I can hit just below center and slightly draw back the cueball with more control because it imparts less draw on the cueball. You have to hit the ball squarely with a hard phenolic tip or risk miscues but that's never an issue for me.
I really don't use the Samsara shaft much.
 
:idea2:


In the near future I will be making up a spring loaded G-10 break tip.


Guaranteed the tip will stay on the cueball surface longer and hit hard.


Will kind of work like a dent puller but in reverse.:grin:
 
BarTableMan said:
Are they really comparable in hardness? Does the Samsara have the loud "snap" when hit like phenolic?
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I am going to say it like this.

Next time I see Andy and Vickie Gilbert I am going to bow to them. And when I see Jim Stadum or Dave Doucette I will bow to them as well.

I traded for a Gilbert J/B. Started using it last week. Thought it would have a regular tip on it but the guy who had it before me installed a Samsara tip.

This thing is without a doubt the best breaking cue I have EVER tried. EVER EVER EVER and I have been involved with the creation of a lot of break cues.

I don't know what the Samsara tip is made of but it does not sound like a phenolic and it feels like a regular tip.

I don't know what elfin magic these two makers are blending in but it works.
 
9Ballr said:
I tried both for a few months and could never learn to break properly with them.
Was always very insecure during breaking, a feeling I hate during pool.
So I installed Kamui Black Hard on my break cue and everything is back to normal.
Since I like that same tip on my player its even nicer......at least it works for me. I hate those super hard leather or phenolic tips.
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Yeah I had same problem with my phenolic tipped break cue. I stuck with it though and everything thing is all good now. What I like most is I can take some power off of my stroke with the phenolic tip and it stills breaks better than a leather tipped cue with more stroke. I have played several racks with my phenolic tip, just need to make sure you use no more than 1 tip english and even that can be sketchy cause the chalk doesn't stick real well.
 
Sorry for the muddy water... There is indeed more to the speed of the cueball off the cue than just the tip... My simplification was just illustrate the difference that just the tip COR can make during the break... It is the easiest variable to adjust.....

Chris
 
How does the Bakelite tip used on the Players HXT-P1 compare to the Samsara and phenolic tips as far as hardness/control and playability?
 
BJTyler said:
To be clear, I am not calling into question the claimed difference between the rebound speeds of phenolic and leather tips.

What I am calling into question is the claim that a cueball rebounds at a slower speed than the cue-stick's impact velocity. I think this is wrong for all center ball hits where the cue-stick weighs more than a cue-ball.
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Yes, the CB moves faster than the cue stick upon collision on most shots.

If you'd like to see a highly technical document by Dr. Dave talking about this and related matters, here it is: http://billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_A-30.pdf. One relevant sentence is:


  • "So for a center-ball hit, with typical equipment (and neglecting energy losses), the ball moves 50% faster than the stick. With an extremely heavy stick ... the theoretical limit for the maximum speed of the ball is twice the speed of the stick."

These theoretical limits assume perfectly elastic collisions, so real world results are lower with the loss of energy from inelastic collisions.

Dr. Dave shows that the CB's speed is a function of the stick speed, the ball-to-stick mass ratio, and the coefficient of restitution.

Even if the formulas in Dr. Dave's document do not interest you, some of the text may still be informative.
 
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Break speed is overrated, controll and consistency is what you need.
I prefer a Samsara or Mezz Sonic tip.
Breaking hard is the easy part, controlling the CB, that`s the skill.
 
Big-Tattoo said:
Samsara, I have one on my Cem Jumper;)
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I agree, you get more control jumping with the Samsara tip. It's hard enough to jump balls easily, but it grabs the cue ball for control better than phenolic. I've tried phenolic, G10 glass, hard water buffalo SUMO tips, and Samsara tips and my vote goes to the Samsara tip for jumping and breaking.
 
Well, as for physics vs. what people experience, never discount the possibility of magic when doing something you love and have dedicated your heart, body, mind, and soul to... lol :)
 
I have been using a phenolic ferrule/tip combo and I have no problem drawing the cue ball as well with my break cue as I do with my playing cue. I make sure the chalk up well if I use it to play a compete game but the english I get is amazing. I don't like the sound that comes from the phenolic thus I don't use it as a player but for things like long straight shots it can't be beat, since the ball rebounds off the cue so fast you don't put any accidental english on the ball.
 
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