Sandbaggers on APA Regionals

Don't need to get to Vegas for that...lol

Bamacues said:
I have good and bad experiences with both the APA and TAP. Neither are perfect, but both can be fun. I like the "no slop" in TAP, but we had major problems with our local operator, so much so that TAP stepped in and shut it down. Now they are trying to get it back up and operating again, but it is not going very strong right now.

I have played APA for a few years now. I enjoy it a lot. I have been to Vegas 4 times in the last 6 years, so we have done OK. I am an 8 ball SL-7, but I don't play as good as I once did, what with pushing 60 years and all...eyes and back are not what they used to be.

Worse sandbagging I ever saw was in APA in Vegas. We were in the last 16-32 field trying to make the final 8. We were ahead in the match by a couple of points going into the 4th match. We put up my son, who was a decent SL-6. The other team puts up an SL-2 (remember, they are behind in a match to advance to final 8 teams, and they had no 23 point issue). The match is a 46-19 match, with my son needing 46. They lag for break and SL-2 wins. SL-2 Breaks and runs first rack, then breaks and runs 6 balls before missing. This leaves my son needing to win 46-3 against someone with suffucient skill to break and run a rack. Needless to say, they went on to advance. We complained to the officials, but that was the only time in the tournament that that particular individual had played, so they would not address it until the individual did it for a second time.

Oh well, I still enjoy playing, but sandbagging can be an issue.

Joe
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Last session during TAs, a team captain was so pissed his face was bright red and looked like it was about to explode. You could hear him over all the noise and music in the Green Room.

A 6 on his team shot a 2, she got the first break, broke and ran, then broke and ran 4 or 5 more balls. Up 14/15-0 in no time. She won 20-0 in about 3 innings....lol

Also, as far as perceived sand bagging....

I shoot out of Cheers Bar, in Parkville, which used to be Champion Billiards. We shoot on 9 ft tables for league. 2 of the teams shooting out of there made it to Vegas last year. Both teams had officials watching them because some teams complained about them. 1 of the teams has a large number of players who shoot league out of Golden Bar in Ellicott City, 9 ft tables, also.

Because of the 9 ft tables their SLs were a bit low because the Equalizer system does not take make sufficient adjustments to account for shooting on 9 ft tables. Neither of the teams sand bag, they just remain lower naturally due to the size of the table. I believe the current system reduces the inning count by 10% or so and the same factor for safeties is used (every 2 safeties reduces the total innings by 1). That is an absurdly low adjustment, especially for the lower SLs.
 
Not all Divisions are Equal

Rumplestiltskin said:
The one thing that tends to keep APA handicaps fairly consistent across regions is the fact that innings are used to determine handicap.

If the 2nd player in your scenario finishes up all of those "given" games in an inning or two, that will be reflected in his handicap. But if it takes him 4-5 innings(or if he lays down), that will keep his HC low.
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True, innings and balls per inning factor into SLs across the country.

However, different divisions, even in the same region are not equal. Some divsions are a lot stronger so shooters may be kept low just because they lose a lot eventhough they may be rated 1 SL higher in a weaker division. That seemingly small difference could be exaggerated when that same shooter is shooting a team from a weaker area/divsion, which would happen during TAs or even in Vegas.
 
MBTaylor said:
True, innings and balls per inning factor into SLs across the country.
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Balls per inning is not measured. At least not in my APA experience, and I've played in two completely different areas.
 
ScottW said:
Balls per inning is not measured. At least not in my APA experience, and I've played in two completely different areas.
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20 innings is the standard match length for calculating the target BPI for SLs in 9 ball.

Part of the equalizer system takes into account balls per inning (BPI) for 9 ball. For example, the target/standard BPI for a SL 5 based on a standard 20 inning match is 1.9 BPI or 38 balls/points.

Obvisouly, using the SL 5 measuring stick, if you exceed that count and start averaging about 2.3 BPI or more, you are headed to SL 6 (46 pts needed to win) or 1.55 BPI, you are headed to SL 4 (31 pts needed to win).

EDIT: That is how in 9 ball, eventhough you may lose a match, it may still move you up closer to the next SL, based on how many points you made and how many innings there were. Example, if you are an SL 6, and you lost to another SL 6, 46-44 in 10 innings, you averaged 4.4 balls per inning, moving you close to SL 7 because the standard for an SL 6 is 2.3 BPI.
 
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In theory, I think the innings/match or per winning rack is the best system you could think up. In theory. The problem is it can be manipulated if the person is just laying down (leading to losses), or the innings are padded (win alot, but stay where you are SL wise). But in theory, to make it the most fair across different leagues from different regions, I cant think of a better way to do it. I am an SL8 in 9ball. Doesnt matter where I am playing, minus safeties, it should take me 0-2 innings per rack.

And overall it works pretty good. Last year was my first experience in Vegas (there for 9ball teams). I knew we had some strong 5s, who were on the verge of maybe going up to 6s. One of them has (and has a 20% win record since, if that). The other two are still 5s, but when they are playing well, they are very strong 5s.

I was told for a few years before going down to Vegas that its just a fun trip. The American players are sooooo much better than us, and the handicaps are very skewed. I heard stories like it was normal for SL3s and 4s to have $2000 custom cues, and be breakin and running racks (stringin them together). I saw no such thing. Our 5s were still pretty strong down there. I only played 6s and 7s and never had a problem. Considering we played teams from all over the USA, seemed to me like the system held up pretty good.

Having said that, we lost to a team who had an SL4 who finished his MATCH in 3 innings. They were later disqualified.

Whatever. We had a great time, played some good pool, the trip was a money maker overall for me, and I met alot of great people down there. Hoping to make it down again this year.
 
MBTaylor said:
20 innings is the standard match length for calculating the target BPI for SLs in 9 ball.

Part of the equalizer system takes into account balls per inning (BPI) for 9 ball. For example, the target/standard BPI for a SL 5 based on a standard 20 inning match is 1.9 BPI or 38 balls/points.
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Ah, you're talking about AVERAGE balls per inning. It sounded like you were talking about keeping track of each inning, how many balls were made, etc. which isn't recorded.
 
ScottW said:
Ah, you're talking about AVERAGE balls per inning. It sounded like you were talking about keeping track of each inning, how many balls were made, etc. which isn't recorded.
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Sorry, wasn't very specific about that in my previous post.

However, in 8 ball, I am sure there is some way they could use a BPI average anyway. Figure you need to shoot 7 balls then the 8 ball. Comes up to 8 balls per rack to win, provided someone does not E8. In some round-about way they might use a BPI factor in 8 ball. That could explain why marking E8 or 8OTB is important.
 
I heard that in the equalizer system, making the 8 on the break is comparable to making a break and run. Input?

(Did it once, got bumped up right away)
 
D_Lewis said:
I heard that in the equalizer system, making the 8 on the break is comparable to making a break and run. Input?

(Did it once, got bumped up right away)
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Not if you mark it as such.
 
Robbie said:
Not if you mark it as such.
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It was marked and we even asked about it at the tournament desk. They said it wasnt exactly the same but it was quite close handicap wise.
 
Not sure about that, but it does help to reduce your innings for the match, so it probably does have some sort of a measurable impact on how that match counts toward your SL.
 
Nah... Anyone can make an 8 on the break.
But an 8 ball run-out actually takes skill to execute the shots and avoid all the obstacles. Even if it's a relatively easy table things can go wrong for many players... Run-out definitely takes more skill and should be regarded as such.
 
8-on-the-break shouldn't be treated the same as a B&R. It's a completely different thing. Most times, 8-on-the-break is pure luck. And for those folks who can do it on a fairly consistent basis - that's a whole different skill than being able to run a table out, and frankly, it's pretty much a repetitive skill - being able to hit the cue ball the same way, into the same spot on the rack, over and over. Nothing at all in common with the ability to run a rack out top to bottom.
 
Im just saying, if you are a steady SL4, and should be an SL4, an 8 off the break alone is not going to make you an SL5.
 
D_Lewis said:
It was marked and we even asked about it at the tournament desk. They said it wasnt exactly the same but it was quite close handicap wise.
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Understandable based on APA system.
Both happen in the same number of innings.
Since they're both 0 innings, they don't allow your opponent to have a turn.
And they'll both lower your total innings count for the match.
Both are regarded as wins.
Thus if done relatively frequently, both will skew your race chart (games must win), making it theoretically easier for you to win, unless your skill level is adjusted upwards accordingly.

So there are alot of similarities, especially based on the stats that they are tracking.

But overall, a big difference is that:
with a break and run the stats should be included to reflect your ability
but with an 8 on the break, the innings should be adjusted/padded by the APA to mirror your existing average innings.
 
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Robbie said:
Im just saying, if you are a steady SL4, and should be an SL4, an 8 off the break alone is not going to make you an SL5.
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I didnt have many matches in at that point, maybe that helped.
 
D_Lewis said:
I didnt have many matches in at that point, maybe that helped.
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I would still find it hard to believe, for example, if you are an SL4, and its taking you an avg of 7 innings to win a game, then you make one 8 off the break, you could go up to a 5 your next match. From what I have read, an 8off the break counts pretty much the same as a rack won with your avg number of innings.
 
If you are an SL 4 and you are averaging 7 innings per match, you are going to go up on that alone. The 8 on the break won't matter much unless you are doing it once a match or somethign like that.

If you start winning in 10 innings or less, quite frequently that will raise you quickly also.

Your SL is primarily based on your best 10 matches of your last 20 matches played. Losses don't count too much towards your SL unless you go on a losing streak.

Wins and quality of wins determine a huge amount fo your SL, especially if you rack up a bunch of above SL wins. If you mainly hover around 20 innings and win about 50%, and your SL is 4, you will probably be rated about 4.5. Factor in more or less wins and more or less high quality wins, and that will determine where you stand in the SL 4 range, closer to 5 or closer to 3.
 
MBTaylor said:
If you are an SL 4 and you are averaging 7 innings per match, you are going to go up on that alone. The 8 on the break won't matter much unless you are doing it once a match or somethign like that.

If you start winning in 10 innings or less, quite frequently that will raise you quickly also.

Your SL is primarily based on your best 10 matches of your last 20 matches played. Losses don't count too much towards your SL unless you go on a losing streak.

Wins and quality of wins determine a huge amount fo your SL, especially if you rack up a bunch of above SL wins. If you mainly hover around 20 innings and win about 50%, and your SL is 4, you will probably be rated about 4.5. Factor in more or less wins and more or less high quality wins, and that will determine where you stand in the SL 4 range, closer to 5 or closer to 3.
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Exactly. (I meant avg 7 innings per rack, think we are on the same page though)
 
How does everyone have this "innings per game" info? 'round these parts its locked in a closet! Never to be seen or heard from again. hahaha.
 
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